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 Post subject: Re: UKIP Cymru...
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:53 am 
LeJockSportif wrote:

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone etc.


:brickthrow:


"Come on! Who threw that? Who threw that stone? Come on"






Couldnae resist :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: UKIP Cymru...
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:03 pm 
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mactartan wrote:
Not a Welsh fan.
They consistently fought for the English against us. There is no cut off date for that as far as im concerned.
They fought at Falkirk and Bannockburn, doing exactly as their English 'masters' asked.
I've only been to Wales once, and it was more than enough.
I was walking along one of those Welsh valleys minding my own business, when a burly gang of miners appeared and terrified me with their close harmony singing. Never again.

And if anyone Welsh reads this and is affronted, tough.
You joined the dark side, and did their bidding.


I thought you were an historian!

No, they didn't fight consistently for the English. In fact, there were a number of times when Scots and Welsh were on the same side. At Agincourt, for example, there were Scots and Welsh on BOTH sides.

In the 10th Century, the poem "Armes Prydain" encouraged the Welsh to join with the Scots to drive out the Saxon.

Gruffudd Llwyd made an alliance with Edward Bruce, and they planned a joint Scottish-Welsh-Irish front against Anglo-Norman expansion. However, both Gruffudd and Edward Bruce were defeated.

Owain Glyndwr had an alliance with the Scots against the English between 1400-1408.

You know when you write, "They fought at X and Y, doing exactly as their English 'masters' asked.", without the names "Falkirk" and "Bannockburn", you could be talking about Scots in the British army. Scots fought on the English side at Bannockburn, and Culloden too, of course.

Saorsa wrote:
Always classed Wales as a part of england its people happy with their subservience, they become Welsh when rugby is played and dont think they will they ever rid themselves of that tag. Agree with MacT they fought more against us than with us. Why was that when people go on about this pan-celtic alliance?


And funnily enough, some Welsh consider the Scots part of England, since most of them have forgotten how to speak Gaidhlig. Swings and roundabouts... A bit like judging the whole of Scotland by an Ibrox crowd.

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 Post subject: Re: UKIP Cymru...
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:43 pm 
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So how many times did the Welsh fight with us against the english compared to against us? Were they paid mercenaries? Or did they fight with the english because they had to? If Scotland had the support of this Pan Celtic Alliance talked about in Bruces day there would have been no problem facing the english in the years after. So what happened to it?


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 Post subject: Re: UKIP Cymru...
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:47 pm 
Scots fought in colonising armies the world over. That doesn't make us English.


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 Post subject: Re: UKIP Cymru...
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:57 pm 
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Aye and unfortunately that was after the union and something like british is what they called it. Talking about before that.


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 Post subject: Re: UKIP Cymru...
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:24 pm 
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I think the Welsh were forced into fighting for the English more than once. In at least one of the battles the English turned on the Welsh archers because they weren't "fighting hard enough" or something, and massacred them themselves... I'll have to try and find out where I read that.

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 Post subject: Re: UKIP Cymru...
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:40 pm 
Saorsa wrote:
Aye and unfortunately that was after the union and something like british is what they called it. Talking about before that.


I'm aware of that funnily enough! :lol:

Wales was annexed and suffered a forced union of it's own. If anything, since they were conquered by force and our nobles went willingly, perhaps other peoples of the world would consider us to be more willing 'partners'.

Great care has to be taken when simplifying the plight of others into black and white - do unto others as you'd have others do unto you is another biblical catchphrase that springs to mind!

(...I better watch out or folk will think I've suffered a conversion!)


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 Post subject: Re: UKIP Cymru...
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:57 pm 
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You will know most then but the question remains un-answered. Why did they fight for the english against us. Jolly says they were forced I have heard of that as well but when they poured arrows into Scots in the field why if they hated the english that much did they not turn against them and fire their arrows that way. Did they not like us? Bruce had a vision of a Pan Celtic alliance against english expansion. What do you think happened to it?


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 Post subject: Re: UKIP Cymru...
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:14 pm 
Saorsa wrote:
You will know most then but the question remains un-answered. Why did they fight for the english against us. Jolly says they were forced I have heard of that as well but when they poured arrows into Scots in the field why if they hated the english that much did they not turn against them and fire their arrows that way. Did they not like us? Bruce had a vision of a Pan Celtic alliance against english expansion. What do you think happened to it?


I think the English happened to it TBH. I think when a small weak counrty is offered a kind of conditional peace instead of annihilation then people are inclined to accept it. I think that's symptomatic of many countries who are dominated or undermined by another but are no longer physically repressed by them (including our own). Wales was annexed, but their culture and customs survived because they weren't a perceivable threat to England -Welsh was never the language of rebellion the way Gaelic would become.


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 Post subject: Re: UKIP Cymru...
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:21 pm 
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LeJockSportif wrote:
Saorsa wrote:
You will know most then but the question remains un-answered. Why did they fight for the english against us. Jolly says they were forced I have heard of that as well but when they poured arrows into Scots in the field why if they hated the english that much did they not turn against them and fire their arrows that way. Did they not like us? Bruce had a vision of a Pan Celtic alliance against english expansion. What do you think happened to it?


I think the English happened to it TBH. I think when a small weak counrty is offered a kind of conditional peace instead of annihilation then people are inclined to accept it. I think that's symptomatic of many countries who are dominated or undermined by another but are no longer physically repressed by them (including our own). Wales was annexed, but their culture and customs survived because they weren't a perceivable threat to England -Welsh was never the language of rebellion the way Gaelic would become.


Sums it up for me and reinforces my opinion of it, just the same as scouse, geordie or cockney, part of provincial england. Would like to see it differently and hope it changes but after all those years I doubt it.

My opinion mind.....


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 Post subject: Re: UKIP Cymru...
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:27 am 
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Saorsa wrote:
Aye and unfortunately that was after the union and something like british is what they called it. Talking about before that.


There were Scots who fought for the English throughout the Middle Ages, especially when Edward ruled us.

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 Post subject: Re: UKIP Cymru...
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:28 am 
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Saorsa wrote:
So how many times did the Welsh fight with us against the english compared to against us? Were they paid mercenaries? Or did they fight with the english because they had to? If Scotland had the support of this Pan Celtic Alliance talked about in Bruces day there would have been no problem facing the english in the years after. So what happened to it?


Simple - the Anglo-Normans won several major victories, which destroyed the chance of it happening. But it came much closer to being than most people imagine, particularly Edward Bruce's wars in Ireland. At one point, even Northern England joined in against southern England.

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 Post subject: Re: UKIP Cymru...
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:35 am 
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Scottish Republican wrote:
Saorsa wrote:
Aye and unfortunately that was after the union and something like british is what they called it. Talking about before that.


There were Scots who fought for the English throughout the Middle Ages, especially when Edward ruled us.


Norman settlers..


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 Post subject: Re: UKIP Cymru...
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:44 am 
Mr miles wrote:

Norman Flighties..


:funny:


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 Post subject: Re: UKIP Cymru...
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:35 am 
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The Normans were on both sides, with some going native.

Interesting that pet historians always call Bruce a Norman, but never mention his Gaelic heritage.

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 Post subject: Re: UKIP Cymru...
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:05 pm 
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I couldn't really give a fuck about the Welsh really, although I guess their eventual independence may stop further attempts by the remnants of the British state to force an independent Scotland back in.

They are pretty much Brits through and through -Scotland about 50 years ago if you will.

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 Post subject: Re: UKIP Cymru...
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:47 pm 
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Scottish Republican wrote:
Simple - the Anglo-Normans won several major victories, which destroyed the chance of it happening. But it came much closer to being than most people imagine, particularly Edward Bruce's wars in Ireland. At one point, even Northern England joined in against southern England.

England has a traditional split between the mainly Germanic Danes in the north and the Germanic Anglos Saxons in the south.

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 Post subject: Re: UKIP Cymru...
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:19 pm 
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A Jolly Sailor wrote:
I think the Welsh were forced into fighting for the English more than once. In at least one of the battles the English turned on the Welsh archers because they weren't "fighting hard enough" or something, and massacred them


Welsh troops mutinied on the eve of the Battle of Falkirk and a slight punch-up ensued.

I don't think that we should condem the entire Welsh nation because of the actions of a few mercenaries. Think of all the people we have been used as mercenaries against!

Welsh Nationalists are our allies.

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 Post subject: Re: UKIP Cymru...
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:28 pm 
Has to be said though, they fought long and viciously against Longshanks, but were completely outmanned. Llewelyn ap Llewelyn or whatever his name was was a hardy customer....


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 Post subject: Re: UKIP Cymru...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:37 am 
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Talorgan wrote:

Welsh Nationalists are our allies.

Totally agree and we should aid one another.

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