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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:19 pm 
Conolly wrote:

I'm well aware of the timeline for Niall and Boru.The millenia i'm reffering to is the lenght of time Tara was the spiritual,cultural and political capital of Ireland



You have only associated the High Kingship of all Ireland with Niall and Brian who account for only a short period. Far from the millennia you claim.

If the site at Tara was constructed around 3,500 BC do you have a complete list of the supposed High Kings of Ireland to cover that period?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:04 am 
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The English/Brits have no right to Ireland. Any of it, ever.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:22 am 
Scottish Republican wrote:
The English/Brits have no right to Ireland. Any of it, ever.


Couldnt agree more


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:28 am 
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Scottish Republican wrote:
The English/Brits have no right to Ireland. Any of it, ever.


Totally with you on that, But its not to say Ireland should be united. Ulster had a different history ( recently ) & the people sound different & have different political interests. I beleve Ulster can & should be an Independent country in its own rite. Just as Scotland will be.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:50 pm 
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Calgacus, that's like saying Gallowegians should be independent because they sound different and have a different history from other parts of Scotland! :horsekeech:

Have you ever heard a Galway man and a Dub speaking? They sound different and have a varying history so should Leinster and Connacht be divided too?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:10 pm 
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Scottish Republican wrote:
The English/Brits have no right to Ireland. Any of it, ever.


Too right chara.And they never will.The same applies to Scotland

Ulster independence?

Independence for what exactly?Are you including the third of Ulster that is in the Republic?

Are you including the four out of the six counties that have nationalist majorities and return nationalist politicians?

Belfast has only one unionist m.p and within ten years will most likely have none.The rest of its m.p's are republicans.Are you suggesting they want independence for the little truncated part of the province they represent?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:45 pm 
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[quote="Fianna na h-Alba"]Calgacus, that's like saying Gallowegians should be independent because they sound different and have a different history from other parts of Scotland!quote]


not quite the same thing. Gallowegians have much the same recent history as the rest of us. Id accept it if you said the western isles.
+ im not talking just about accents its the entire way of thinking. the people of norn Ireland just simply think about things in a difrent way from their Cousins in the south.
At the end of the day its simply up to the people of Ulster what they do. But wouldn’t an independent state be a better compromise than fighting between the Irish & English fractions.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:08 pm 
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Your comment about not "doing web links" reveals you as a man with ingrained prejudices that hasn't got the balls or the brains to let them go.


I'll easily let them go if you prove me wrong, I just like to question things... :roll:

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Also you don't give the impression of being a well read man seeing as how you ignored links I posted from a history periodical


Who said I ignored them? I'm right into stones, but the link fails to prove anything about the early settlers of Ireland. Stones are from the Neolithic period & found all over europe.

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While Scotland was divided between Gaels,Picts and Vikings ,Ireland was Wholly Gaelic with a High King whose capital was Tara.


Sorry, but thats a myth... :???: Oh & Ogham stones unique to Ireland dont suggest being of Gaelic origin...
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And what has the civil war got to do with the disunity of the people of the six counties today?


Who's talking about the six counties? The Republic had a massive & bloody civil war, hardly the acts of a unified Nation & nothing to do with the six counties..

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Funnily enough,sectarianism was brought to Ireland by Scottish planters that could be counted upon to disdain the native catholic population.It was one of the main reasons why the English chose them for this plantation.When Irish migrants escaping An Gorta Mor arrived in Glasgow they landed in a city that until recently had more anti'catholic societies than catholics .The orange order was founded by Scottish planters so what you have in Scotland today are the descendants of these original emigres coming home and bringing their bile back with them


Oh come on, thats a bit of a broad brush...What about the United Irishmen who tried to unite both Catholic & Protestant, formed largely by Scottish Protestant settlers? They were pounced on by both accessionist Protestants & Irish Republicans who couldn't see past religion....Something that remains to this day.

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What irony? I was simply pointing out the absurdity of calling anyone "brave" when all you know of them is what the type on their keyboard!


For your ingormation, myself & MacMadd were tramping the moors two weeks ago discussing History :bye: ... Never been called a keyboard warrior before :lol: ..

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Reffering to Irish Republicans as unionists is grossly offensive.


How? Irish Republicans want a united Ireland right? You also go on to mention reunification :innocent9: .. Unionist is not just a term that applies to brits...

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But from Niall of the nine Hostages to Brian Boru Ireland has had a high King and Tara has been our capital culturaly and politically for millenia.To deny this isn't "challenging accepted history",its being gratuitously offensive


OK, prove it? I'm not being offensive, just genuinely curious... I honestly believe the whole Kings & Tara thing is a myth & believe its a ceremonial Neolithic site..

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How would you like it if I was to claim England had a right to control you?


Thats entirely up to you, I hear such things every day.. :cry:


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It is grossly offensive for someone to claim We were never a united people until he showed up


Again, no offense, but even pre Cromwell, Ireland was not united.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 6:47 pm 
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Calgacus wrote:
not quite the same thing. Gallowegians have much the same recent history as the rest of us. Id accept it if you said the western isles.


Why? Lets call it Highland and Lowland then, and while we're at it let's fall back into all the other divide and conquer traps that have been set for anyone who dares to think radically about the state of the Union.

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+ im not talking just about accents its the entire way of thinking. the people of norn Ireland just simply think about things in a difrent way from their Cousins in the south.


Presumably there is biological evidence to back this theory up? If you mean the siege mentality that has been fostered among both sides of the community there then you only have to look as far as Glasgow and Lanarkshire to find parallels. Perhaps they should consider independence or Union with an independent 6 counties too? That idea is every bit as whimsical as what you are suggesting!

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At the end of the day its simply up to the people of Ulster what they do. But wouldn’t an independent state be a better compromise than fighting between the Irish & English fractions.


No, a bit of harmony without a fabricated divide between two sects of the same religion would be far preferable and more realistically achievable through education in actual facts than an economically or culturally independent 6 counties.

The march of progress has to strike sometime.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 7:22 pm 
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Mr miles wrote:
Funnily enough,sectarianism was brought to Ireland by Scottish planters that could be counted upon to disdain the native catholic population.It was one of the main reasons why the English chose them for this plantation.


You are mistaken here a' charaid. The main reason that they were "chosen" was because they had mostly been forcibly cleared from the Scottish borders where they had an economy based on plunder pillage and bloodshed which was clearly contrary to common law. The Brits tried to kill two birds with one stone here by 'gifting' them lands in Ulster (in cases death was one of the other options on offer!). You'll find that most Scots surnames in NI are from the reiving clans of the Border, the warlike families that ran by a morality quite different to that of the rest of these islands. Ideal frontiersmen and as expendable and problematic as those they were intended to buffer.

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Oh come on, thats a bit of a broad brush...What about the United Irishmen who tried to unite both Catholic & Protestant, formed largely by Scottish Protestant settlers? They were pounced on by both accessionist Protestants & Irish Republicans who couldn't see past religion....Something that remains to this day.


Very true. It should be noted too that Scottish Presbyterians were not permitted to join the Orange societies until after said uprising. Clear divide and conquer tactic.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 10:02 pm 
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Mr miles wrote:
Funnily enough,sectarianism was brought to Ireland by Scottish planters that could be counted upon to disdain the native catholic population.It was one of the main reasons why the English chose them for this plantation.



You are mistaken here a' charaid. The main reason that they were "chosen" was because they had mostly been forcibly cleared from the Scottish borders where they had an economy based on plunder pillage and bloodshed which was clearly contrary to common law. The Brits tried to kill two birds with one stone here by 'gifting' them lands in Ulster (in cases death was one of the other options on offer!). You'll find that most Scots surnames in NI are from the reiving clans of the Border, the warlike families that ran by a morality quite different to that of the rest of these islands. Ideal frontiersmen and as expendable and problematic as those they were intended to buffer.


Excuse me...Mr miles said no such thing... :ranting: :ranting:, the above was from our Irish friend...

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Mr miles wrote:
Oh come on, thats a bit of a broad brush...What about the United Irishmen who tried to unite both Catholic & Protestant, formed largely by Scottish Protestant settlers? They were pounced on by both accessionist Protestants & Irish Republicans who couldn't see past religion....Something that remains to this day.



Very true. It should be noted too that Scottish Presbyterians were not permitted to join the Orange societies until after said uprising. Clear divide and conquer tactic.


Absolutely, & I did mean to add a bit about that...But hey its fishing season... :fishing:

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Gallowegians have much the same recent history as the rest of us. Id accept it if you said the western isles.


Both sides of the divide in Ireland could learn a lot from the Western Isles... :cool:


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:07 am 
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Mr miles wrote:

Excuse me...Mr miles said no such thing... :ranting: :ranting:, the above was from our Irish friend...


Whoops! Sorry about that! :oooops:


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:36 pm 
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Calgacus wrote:
Fianna na h-Alba wrote:
Calgacus, that's like saying Gallowegians should be independent because they sound different and have a different history from other parts of Scotland!quote]


not quite the same thing. Gallowegians have much the same recent history as the rest of us. Id accept it if you said the western isles.
+
im not talking just about accents its the entire way of thinking. the people of norn Ireland just simply think about things in a difrent way from their Cousins in the south.
At the end of the day its simply up to the people of Ulster what they do. But wouldn’t an independent state be a better compromise than fighting between the Irish & English fractions.


Cousins in the south?

So some piece of imperialist filth in westminster drawing an arbitrary line through a map for no other purpose than to ensure the largest area of land protestants can hold while keeping an inbuilt majority over the native population has relegated Irish people north of this line to the status of cousins!

Nationalists are now a majority in the 18 and under age group.And if it was acceptable for six counties to secede on the grounds that they didn't wish to be ruled from Dublin well then surely now it should be acceptable for four of those six to reunify,seeing as they hold comfortable nationalist majorities


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:47 pm 
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Fianna na h-Alba wrote:
Mr miles wrote:
Funnily enough,sectarianism was brought to Ireland by Scottish planters that could be counted upon to disdain the native catholic population.It was one of the main reasons why the English chose them for this plantation.


You are mistaken here a' charaid. The main reason that they were "chosen" was because they had mostly been forcibly cleared from the Scottish borders where they had an economy based on plunder pillage and bloodshed which was clearly contrary to common law. The Brits tried to kill two birds with one stone here by 'gifting' them lands in Ulster (in cases death was one of the other options on offer!). You'll find that most Scots surnames in NI are from the reiving clans of the Border, the warlike families that ran by a morality quite different to that of the rest of these islands. Ideal frontiersmen and as expendable and problematic as those they were intended to buffer.

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Oh come on, thats a bit of a broad brush...What about the United Irishmen who tried to unite both Catholic & Protestant, formed largely by Scottish Protestant settlers? They were pounced on by both accessionist Protestants & Irish Republicans who couldn't see past religion....Something that remains to this day.


Very true. It should be noted too that Scottish Presbyterians were not permitted to join the Orange societies until after said uprising. Clear divide and conquer tactic.



Perhaps I should have worded my answer better chara.Of course,names like Graham and Ervine can be traced to the borders and religion was hardly the strongest amongst them

But they could be relied upon to fight Britians battles for her here.And its true that the united Irishmen was set up by protestants and that presbyterians suffered disadvantages under the law as well.But when discrimination against differing non anglican protestants was removed so was their reason to stand along side the natives looking for freedom from British rule

It should also be noted that the united Irismen were mostly from the merchant class so had different reasons for wanting independence for Ireland than did the subjagated natives


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:03 am 
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Fianna na h-Alba wrote:
Cousins in the south?

So some piece of imperialist filth in westminster drawing an arbitrary line through a map for no other purpose than to ensure the largest area of land protestants can hold while keeping an inbuilt majority over the native population has relegated Irish people north of this line to the status of cousins!

Nationalists are now a majority in the 18 and under age group.And if it was acceptable for six counties to secede on the grounds that they didn't wish to be ruled from Dublin well then surely now it should be acceptable for four of those six to reunify,seeing as they hold comfortable nationalist majorities



Im not giving my opinion on what i think should happen. Im just saying what i think will happen.

Yes, if thats the will of the people then let it happen. Let Nothern Ireland get split down into a smaller country ( if thats what is voted for ) I just cant see it happening mate thats all. The issue is when Scotland is independant, Will the "Unionist" groups still feel the same about being part of Brittain ( England/Wales) ? Doubt it ! But i also doubt they will switch sides and be happy with Dublin rule.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:36 am 
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Conolly wrote:
religion was hardly the strongest amongst them


Still the case it seems. Nary a Christian to be found.

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But they could be relied upon to fight Britians battles for her here.
Quite correct but not (in the beginning anyway) out of any particular religious fervour. They behaved pretty much in the the same way that a game dog will when thrown into a pit by men. I think their role as staunch rebels in America indicates that their interests historically have been their own as opposed to loyalty to anyone else (as much as they currently protest to the contrary) and I feel sure that you'll agree that the religious aspect was designed to keep the non-Anglican Irish sects divided. I'd guess that Kirk and Chapel attendances are on the wain in NI just as they are in the rest of the world though?

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And its true that the united Irishmen was set up by protestants and that presbyterians suffered disadvantages under the law as well.But when discrimination against differing non anglican protestants was removed so was their reason to stand along side the natives looking for freedom from British rule
Absolutely.

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It should also be noted that the united Irismen were mostly from the merchant class so had different reasons for wanting independence for Ireland than did the subjagated natives


I've read that there were plenty of Presbyterian farmers involved too. Was that the case?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:14 pm 
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Fianna na h-Alba wrote:
Conolly wrote:
religion was hardly the strongest amongst them


Still the case it seems. Nary a Christian to be found.

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But they could be relied upon to fight Britians battles for her here.
Quite correct but not (in the beginning anyway) out of any particular religious fervour. They behaved pretty much in the the same way that a game dog will when thrown into a pit by men. I think their role as staunch rebels in America indicates that their interests historically have been their own as opposed to loyalty to anyone else (as much as they currently protest to the contrary) and I feel sure that you'll agree that the religious aspect was designed to keep the non-Anglican Irish sects divided. I'd guess that Kirk and Chapel attendances are on the wain in NI just as they are in the rest of the world though?

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And its true that the united Irishmen was set up by protestants and that presbyterians suffered disadvantages under the law as well.But when discrimination against differing non anglican protestants was removed so was their reason to stand along side the natives looking for freedom from British rule
Absolutely.

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It should also be noted that the united Irismen were mostly from the merchant class so had different reasons for wanting independence for Ireland than did the subjagated natives


I've read that there were plenty of Presbyterian farmers involved too. Was that the case?



No,but as the English knew it makes a neat dividing line.It will be a great day for my country when the last church and chapel shuts its doors and all vestiges of an ignorant bronze age belief system is taken from the land

Outside of the bible belt in the north east ,church attendance in Ireland is way down,most of the new priests are polish because Irish people can't be found to do the job.Maynooth used to churn out 3000 priests a year,last year year I think the number was down to six!

Presbyterian artisans and a few middling farmers would have been united Iirshmen alright but the majority of the rank and file werethe catholic natives


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:21 pm 
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Calgacus wrote:
Fianna na h-Alba wrote:
Cousins in the south?

So some piece of imperialist filth in westminster drawing an arbitrary line through a map for no other purpose than to ensure the largest area of land protestants can hold while keeping an inbuilt majority over the native population has relegated Irish people north of this line to the status of cousins!

Nationalists are now a majority in the 18 and under age group.And if it was acceptable for six counties to secede on the grounds that they didn't wish to be ruled from Dublin well then surely now it should be acceptable for four of those six to reunify,seeing as they hold comfortable nationalist majorities



Im not giving my opinion on what i think should happen. Im just saying what i think will happen.

Yes, if thats the will of the people then let it happen. Let Nothern Ireland get split down into a smaller country ( if thats what is voted for ) I just cant see it happening mate thats all. The issue is when Scotland is independant, Will the "Unionist" groups still feel the same about being part of Brittain ( England/Wales) ? Doubt it ! But i also doubt they will switch sides and be happy with Dublin rule.



The six counties are and always have been economically unviable as a stand alone state.When the British were ripping our country up along religious lines they actually offered all of Ulster to the unionists,who refused on the grounds that their majority would be too slim and they wouldn't be able to hold it

The only people pushing for an independent six counties are loyalists that are beginning to see the writing on the wall.When Scotland leaves the union it becomes untenable.The British will no longer throw billions at an economic black hole


The north east will reunify with the rest of us,its what the majority will want.Those that don't like it are free to move back to Britain,those that are willing to stay can help build a new Ireland


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:52 pm 
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The north east will reunify with the rest of us,its what the majority will want.Those that don't like it are free to move back to Britain,


And where in britain do you think they will head to :ranting: ? Can America not take them.. :innocent9:


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:18 am 
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Well, something like 1/3 of council houses in Bradford are unoccupied.

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