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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:45 am 
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Oppenheimer's no bad at the DNA stuff but I doubt he's a linguistic expert... :lol:

There are so many sources of possible leads - have a look at this:
http://www.vikingrune.com/2009/03/mice-dna-vikings/
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Another strain of mice found on mainland Britain show some of the same DNA sequences as mice from Germany. Researchers believe this might be a link to Bronze Age human migrations, beginning about 2300 BC.

No simple answers...

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:06 am 
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http://www.celticconnection.com/detail.lasso?t=content&r=cr2fd

Off topic a bit from the language, but fits in with the dna suggestions, I found this of interest.

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England, the most crowded region in the Isles today, was invaded for a thousand years beginning with the Romans in 43 AD. Asserting that tales of 6th century King Arthur and the ancient Britons are rooted in fact, the professor remarks that, In my research around the world I have more than once found that oral myths are closer to the genetic conclusions than the often ambiguous scientific evidence of archaeology. Arthurian traditions faded when Henry VIII broke with the Catholic Church in the 16th century, and the resulting veneration of Saxon King Alfred provoked centuries of Saxon vs. Celt conflict. This conjuring of a new origin myth peaked in the 19th century with Saxon superiority characterized by a righteous, crusty citizenry towering over low-life Celtic loungers. The Roman Empire's collapse offered expansion opportunities to barbarian Angles, Saxons and Jutes from the 8th to the 11th centuries, and the DNA of these tough customers remains strong in northeastern England. The bloodlines of William of Normandy, leader of the Norman Invasion in 1066, render him a recycled Viking.

Saxon, Dane and Norman are close German/Scandinavian cousins; our tongue is English instead of Celtic, courtesy of these invaders. In addition to donations of Viking, Saxon and Norman blood, a smattering of African and Middle Eastern DNA was found in southern England, shocking individuals with no such known ancestry. These DNA dribbles lead the author to think that these folks may be descended from Roman slaves. History lessons keep surging out of this grand field trip, and they alone are worth the price of the book. The professors instruction on Irish Celts is absorbing. Although the Vikings elbowed their way around Ireland during the 9th century, Celtic genetic dominance is huge. Folks in Leinster show some Anglo-Norman DNA influence, and an intriguing Y-chromosome ancestral study of males with old Gaelic names (Mc, Mac, O) had me in thrall.

Research in Scotland turned up Picts, Celts from Ireland, Vikings and Anglo-Normans. Most Scots are genetically similar to the Irish, amazingly so in Argyll. Old camps show Mesolithic people in Scotland at Orkney and the Shetlands 10,000 years ago, and the exception to the genetic closeness with Ireland rests in these areas. Vikings began arriving in the neighborhood during the late 8th century, and Norse place names still dominate the landscape. DNA studies prove that the occupiers brought their own women along, and Viking ancestry stands at 30 to 40 percent today. Sykes describes a wee Scandinavian air in Shetland as an "Undemonstrative, no-nonsense feeling of the place." I have always wondered about the Picts - Celtic variants or a relic population? The Romans called them Picti (Painted People). This treasure hunt demands reading in one sitting. Similarities with Celts were found, and DNA testifies that Picts flourish among us still, predominately in the Grampian and Tayside regions of Scotland.

Wales withstood assaults by Romans, Irish, Saxons, Normans, and English, and it manifests a mighty genetic kinship with Ireland and Scotland, minus the Viking donors. Some individuals living in the remote mountains near Plynlimmon and Tregaron found themselves the focus of much early 20th century research on their odd-shaped heads and Neanderthal-like faces. One extraordinary anecdote concerns two brothers who were widely regarded as Neanderthals and notoriously named the Tregaron Neanderthals. In the 1950s and 1960s, local Welsh teachers, following instructions in their schools history syllabi, took students to interview these welcoming men. The brothers died in the 1980s, and Sykes doubts that they were true Neanderthals, but scientists are still looking out for Neanderthal DNA (none found to date).

The professor's reports confirm that almost everyone in Ireland and Britain has Celtic ancestors who arrived thousands of years ago in flimsy boats over the Atlantic from Celtic Iberia. These findings give credence to the Irish Milesian myth, and Sykes reiterates that,"Deeply held origin myths, however richly embroidered, have a habit of being right."


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:38 am 
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Friseal wrote:
http://www.celticconnection.com/detail.lasso?t=content&r=cr2fd

Off topic a bit from the language, but fits in with the dna suggestions, I found this of interest.

Quote:
England, the most crowded region in the Isles today, was invaded for a thousand years beginning with the Romans in 43 AD. Asserting that tales of 6th century King Arthur and the ancient Britons are rooted in fact, the professor remarks that, In my research around the world I have more than once found that oral myths are closer to the genetic conclusions than the often ambiguous scientific evidence of archaeology. Arthurian traditions faded when Henry VIII broke with the Catholic Church in the 16th century, and the resulting veneration of Saxon King Alfred provoked centuries of Saxon vs. Celt conflict. This conjuring of a new origin myth peaked in the 19th century with Saxon superiority characterized by a righteous, crusty citizenry towering over low-life Celtic loungers. The Roman Empire's collapse offered expansion opportunities to barbarian Angles, Saxons and Jutes from the 8th to the 11th centuries, and the DNA of these tough customers remains strong in northeastern England. The bloodlines of William of Normandy, leader of the Norman Invasion in 1066, render him a recycled Viking.

Saxon, Dane and Norman are close German/Scandinavian cousins; our tongue is English instead of Celtic, courtesy of these invaders. In addition to donations of Viking, Saxon and Norman blood, a smattering of African and Middle Eastern DNA was found in southern England, shocking individuals with no such known ancestry. These DNA dribbles lead the author to think that these folks may be descended from Roman slaves. History lessons keep surging out of this grand field trip, and they alone are worth the price of the book. The professors instruction on Irish Celts is absorbing. Although the Vikings elbowed their way around Ireland during the 9th century, Celtic genetic dominance is huge. Folks in Leinster show some Anglo-Norman DNA influence, and an intriguing Y-chromosome ancestral study of males with old Gaelic names (Mc, Mac, O) had me in thrall.

Research in Scotland turned up Picts, Celts from Ireland, Vikings and Anglo-Normans. Most Scots are genetically similar to the Irish, amazingly so in Argyll. Old camps show Mesolithic people in Scotland at Orkney and the Shetlands 10,000 years ago, and the exception to the genetic closeness with Ireland rests in these areas. Vikings began arriving in the neighborhood during the late 8th century, and Norse place names still dominate the landscape. DNA studies prove that the occupiers brought their own women along, and Viking ancestry stands at 30 to 40 percent today. Sykes describes a wee Scandinavian air in Shetland as an "Undemonstrative, no-nonsense feeling of the place." I have always wondered about the Picts - Celtic variants or a relic population? The Romans called them Picti (Painted People). This treasure hunt demands reading in one sitting. Similarities with Celts were found, and DNA testifies that Picts flourish among us still, predominately in the Grampian and Tayside regions of Scotland.

Wales withstood assaults by Romans, Irish, Saxons, Normans, and English, and it manifests a mighty genetic kinship with Ireland and Scotland, minus the Viking donors. Some individuals living in the remote mountains near Plynlimmon and Tregaron found themselves the focus of much early 20th century research on their odd-shaped heads and Neanderthal-like faces. One extraordinary anecdote concerns two brothers who were widely regarded as Neanderthals and notoriously named the Tregaron Neanderthals. In the 1950s and 1960s, local Welsh teachers, following instructions in their schools history syllabi, took students to interview these welcoming men. The brothers died in the 1980s, and Sykes doubts that they were true Neanderthals, but scientists are still looking out for Neanderthal DNA (none found to date).

The professor's reports confirm that almost everyone in Ireland and Britain has Celtic ancestors who arrived thousands of years ago in flimsy boats over the Atlantic from Celtic Iberia. These findings give credence to the Irish Milesian myth, and Sykes reiterates that,"Deeply held origin myths, however richly embroidered, have a habit of being right."

Thanks for that friseal , extremely interesting.Oppenheimer comes across to me as someone who obviously knows a bit about dna , but trys to put forth the english claim that they are just the same as us , or the common british ancestry , we are all one homogenous people , the brit race in line with the politics of today.
Many of these so called dna experts put forth their claims as the absolute truth , often ignoring contemporary writers. For example the peacefull , happy settlement of england by friendly saxon migrants flys in the face of what people like gildas writes , of invasion by a brutal foe and massacres of brythonic populations.
We know dna is a difficult way of identifying history , we know somewhere along the line different people are related going back to the mythical indo european tribes and they in turn are related going back to the humans coming out of africa. The celts themselves have often been described as a "race" when this is not true. They were groups of differing races united in language and culture , from the tall blond haired blue eyed of southern germany , austria , to the short swarthy skinned dark haired peoples of iberia.
The irish , scots and welsh all have their origin myths , from the irish milesians , coming from spain , us scots coming from scythia and the welsh being the descendants of brutus of troy.
Personally i think there may be an element of truth from all viewpoints , the hard part is sifting through aw the bullshit.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:24 am 
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Many of these so called dna experts put forth their claims as the absolute truth , often ignoring contemporary writers. For example the peacefull , happy settlement of england by friendly saxon migrants flys in the face of what people like gildas writes , of invasion by a brutal foe and massacres of brythonic populations.


I'd sooner trust hard DNA and archaeological evidence than Gildas and Bede. They weren't historians, they were people writing books, and they almost certainly exaggerated things and just plain made up others. There's simply no evidence that there was any large scale invasion of Anglo saxons, of course there were certainly numerous raids and some settlers but our genetic markers show that we in Britain and Ireland are mostly of a relatively homogenous pre-germanic stock. Plus the archaeological evidence shows villages of britons living in harmony with Ingaevonics. No doubt the language and culture was pushed aside, but the 19th century view that it was some kind of Celtic holocaust is starting to become less extreme.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:52 am 
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Copperknickers wrote:
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Many of these so called dna experts put forth their claims as the absolute truth , often ignoring contemporary writers. For example the peacefull , happy settlement of england by friendly saxon migrants flys in the face of what people like gildas writes , of invasion by a brutal foe and massacres of brythonic populations.


I'd sooner trust hard DNA and archaeological evidence than Gildas and Bede. They weren't historians, they were people writing books, and they almost certainly exaggerated things and just plain made up others. There's simply no evidence that there was any large scale invasion of Anglo saxons, of course there were certainly numerous raids and some settlers but our genetic markers show that we in Britain and Ireland are mostly of a relatively homogenous pre-germanic stock. Plus the archaeological evidence shows villages of britons living in harmony with Ingaevonics. No doubt the language and culture was pushed aside, but the 19th century view that it was some kind of Celtic holocaust is starting to become less extreme.

would you??? i wouldnt be so quuick to judge!!! they lived through these times , you did not!!there were germanic celts , i am sure you know in your dna studies!!! blond haired and bluue eyed celts you know?!!!ah well we must be all english i expect .....not!!!!

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:18 pm 
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That's the point though - we aren't even of Germanic Celtic stock, we are of non-Germanic stock. And Herodotus and Marco Polo wrote some exquisite historical works, but any historian would tell you that to trust what they said to the letter is just stupidity. The idea of recording history as an unbiased collection of exact facts didn't exist until the Early Modern period. Read any of these sources you want, and you'll find things like people being killed by ghosts, strange mythological creatures, angels, demons, completely unsubstantiated claims of things that clearly did not happen... you have to take these things with a grain of salt.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:37 pm 
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Copperknickers wrote:
That's the point though - we aren't even of Germanic Celtic stock, we are of non-Germanic stock. And Herodotus and Marco Polo wrote some exquisite historical works, but any historian would tell you that to trust what they said to the letter is just stupidity. The idea of recording history as an unbiased collection of exact facts didn't exist until the Early Modern period. Read any of these sources you want, and you'll find things like people being killed by ghosts, strange mythological creatures, angels, demons, completely unsubstantiated claims of things that clearly did not happen... you have to take these things with a grain of salt.

Every human being on this planet is related somewhere along the line going back through history.Apart from higher proportion of red hair , we dont appear any different from many other northern european countries. If i wanted to find out what my "stock" was i would get a dna test. Although i have a gaidhlig name , and born and bred in glasgow , i am sure i have the blood of picts, gaels, brythonic celts as well as viking, saxon french etc who knows??? I dont find it important to be honest.

There is no unbiased history , of course not. But much of what has been written can be corroborated by archaelogical evidence , as well as modern methods such as dna. Only a fool though would dismiss out of hand contemporary writers.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:58 pm 
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Only a fool would believe contemporary writers without archaeological or DNA proof, and there is really neither of those.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:58 pm 
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copper knickers , I think you misunderstand me. Admittedly I am not always the clearest in getting my point across.

Only a fool would believe contemporary writers without archaeological or DNA proof, and there is really neither of those.”

I am in no way suggesting that we believe contemporary writers without investigating what they say , of course not.
Archaeologists don’t just turn up to dig in some nice looking field for evidence , they investigate and work out what has been written and attempt to prove it through archaeological digs and modern science that we now have at our disposal.I believe in a grain of truth in everything , I am not suggesting we blindly follow everything that has been written.

We have dna proof , for example thay have proved that much of the population of eastern England and the northern islands of Scotland have danish and Norwegian dna through the Vikings settling there. What I am saying is this isn’t the be all and end all , as many experts also admit that it is hard , for example to say through dna evidence if those people in east England have angle dna or later danish dna as the two are practically indistinguishable as they originally come from the same area in what is now northern germany, southern denmark. The point is , piecing together modern dna AND history myths and legends of the danes conquering and settling much of northern and eastern England we can pretty much all agree this is true.


“I'd sooner trust hard DNA and archaeological evidence than Gildas and Bede. They weren't historians, they were people writing books, and they almost certainly exaggerated things and just plain made up others. There's simply no evidence that there was any large scale invasion of Anglo saxons, of course there were certainly numerous raids and some settlers but our genetic markers show that we in Britain and Ireland are mostly of a relatively homogenous pre-germanic stock. Plus the archaeological evidence shows villages of britons living in harmony with Ingaevonics. No doubt the language and culture was pushed aside, but the 19th century view that it was some kind of Celtic holocaust is starting to become less extreme.”

Gildas and Bede were both churchmen , we know they may have been a bit economical with the truth at times but also we have much valuable information from them . This is conjuction with many other annalists, both celt and saxon and writers from other lands. My view is that to say there was no large scale invasion of anglo saxons is nonsensical , not only are you dismissing the writings of people like gildas , who writes of the horrors and mass migration of the celts from what is now England due to the saxons , not only was the guy an eyewitness to these events but he was also one of those who migrated.

The linguist , dr Mario pei , adds his support to the extermination theory. He states that

“one might imagine that the celtic of the original (brythonic) inhabitants would have supplied a fertile field for loan words to the anglo saxon. This is emphatically not the case. The reason being the scantiness of social relations between the two races , the English considering the celts as inferior and there own tongue and race as superior.”

The extent to which the anglo saxons overwhelmed the native celts is illustrated in their vocabulary. We might expect two languages , ESPECIALLY A BORROWING LANGUAGE LIKE ENGLISH , living happily alongside each other for centuries would borrow freely from each other. In fact old English contains barely a dozen celtic words , there is records of them calling the celts a filthy race and the refusal to mate with celtic woman. I completely dissagree with people like Oppenheim and later pro English historical revisionists , although I do concede there may be elements of truth.

Anyway , already we are going way off topic in this thread and if you wish to discuss this further I am happy to do so in another thread. This is about the picts after all.

I dissagree with much of what you say im afraid copper knickers. I see you state you are of irish/Bengali descent , what are your politics??? I assume you are born in Scotland?? What is your connection to lallans?? Hope you don’t mind me asking???

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:42 pm 
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I dissagree with much of what you say im afraid copper knickers. I see you state you are of irish/Bengali descent , what are your politics??? I assume you are born in Scotland?? What is your connection to lallans?? Hope you don’t mind me asking???


I was born in London, not that that's at all relevent to anything. I live in Glasgow and I speak Scots every day is my connection to it. I want to see Scotland independent. I don't mind your asking at all, I assume you are born, bred and blooded Scottish though? :saltire:


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:46 am 
I've only ever met one bugger who could take everyone right back to Scotland. He's the absolute exception to the rule. And even then, that's still only a couple of hundred years. Who knows what went on before that. Take me though:

1/2 Irish
3/8 Scottish
1/8 English

although only one of my grandparents was born in Ireland, I could get me one of those passports quicker than we'll get our Scottish ones unfortunately....


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:01 am 
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Copperknickers wrote:
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I dissagree with much of what you say im afraid copper knickers. I see you state you are of irish/Bengali descent , what are your politics??? I assume you are born in Scotland?? What is your connection to lallans?? Hope you don’t mind me asking???


I was born in London, not that that's at all relevent to anything. I live in Glasgow and I speak Scots every day is my connection to it. I want to see Scotland independent. I don't mind your asking at all, I assume you are born, bred and blooded Scottish though? :saltire:


What??? Where you were born , your ancestry and how you were brought up has everything to do with it! It shapes how we think and view the world!!

You live in glasgow and speak scots everyday do ye?? Can ye tell me what part that is then??? I am born and bred in govan , and although i dont live there anymore i have family all round glasgow , paisley, Renfrew and other parts of scotland. Everyone i know including family and friends speak english in their scots slang. My old granny knew a bit of your inglis and had some of the gaidhlig , but i dont know anyone in scotland , especially the younger generations who speak inglis!!!

My ancestry is important to me , and although we can only go back a few generations in the family tree ,( like most human beings ), my paternal side come from antrim and were staunch presbyterians , my father was born in ayrshire but lived his life in glasgow and my maternal side are from glasgow , crookston , and they are all catholic. . I believe my maternal side are of highland descent , probably came to glasgow to find work within the last century or so. It was unusual my old gran had some gaidhlig , thats where my interest comes from .

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:10 am 
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By the way , since the education act scotland of 1872 , which completely ignored the scottish (gaidhlig) language , standard english has been taught in our schools. Possibly even before this , and the majority of us on here are products of an angliscised school education in scotland , i know i am anyway. I find it hard to believe that there are many if any scots speaking lallans or inglis , although there are many who THINK that they do which is an entirely different thing.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:37 pm 
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albannach wrote:
Where you were born , your ancestry and how you were brought up has everything to do with it! It shapes how we think and view the world!!


I believe that is very true.

I was born in Glasgow, but might as well not have been since we moved to Cunningham in Ayrshire while I was very young. The anti-Irish bigotry in the area used to sicken me to the core. Both my parents are Irish - Donegal - and I can't find an ancestor from outside the county anywhere in the family, which we have on my father's side, going back about three hundred years.

Now living at home in Donegal (I was never made to feel at home in Scotland by the locals) I cannot stand to hear any hint of anti-Scottishness from the Irish. None of it directed at me, I might add - I'm one of them, I can even speak the lingo better than most of them, which is scarcely a great achievement sad to say.

The result of my background on me that I can see for myself (no doubt friends and family will see things I am blind to) is that I am definitely pan-Gaelic in my outlook, but not pan-Celtic, although I have the deepest respect for our Brittonic cousins and a great love and admiration for the spirit of the Welsh language revivalists. As for the English, I have no love for any displays of anti-Englishness, but am also dead-set opposed to their establishment's imperialism - military, economic and cultural - on our nations.


At the top of my wishlist is to see the Scots and Irish putting the centuries of foreign manipulation against each other behind them and concentrating their spirit of rivalry on hurling/shinty or rugby or something like it. Next is that we somehow get the real history of our nations through the skulls of those who have been socially-engineered by the Evil Empire. After that I'd love to see the restoration of our native langauges in the three Gaelic nations. Then I think we can be ourselves and see where the future takes us.

I think my wish list is entirely consistent with my past.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:37 pm 
Ultach wrote:
Cunningham in Ayrshire while I was very young. The anti-Irish bigotry in the area used to sicken me to the core

aye, my father had a couple of chippies in Irvine many moons ago(main one was across from the turf pub on Eglinton street and the other was down Ravenspark way) and the whole area... irvine, kilwinning,stevenson and UBER orange ad the walks every year were literally miles long and took about 4-50 minutes to pass you bye.
Was glad when we moved back to Ayr i can tell you.
Ayrshire though, both north and south is quite polarized by religious bigotry and it pissed me off.
that's part of the reason i live in Edinburgh now... well that and the fact my family thru in ayrshire is bloody massive (my mother was one of ten ffs!)and you cn fart within 40 miles of ayr town center without some bugger in my family commenting on how loud/smelly it was..LOL


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Ultach wrote:
albannach wrote:
Where you were born , your ancestry and how you were brought up has everything to do with it! It shapes how we think and view the world!!


I believe that is very true.

I was born in Glasgow, but might as well not have been since we moved to Cunningham in Ayrshire while I was very young. The anti-Irish bigotry in the area used to sicken me to the core. Both my parents are Irish - Donegal - and I can't find an ancestor from outside the county anywhere in the family, which we have on my father's side, going back about three hundred years.

Now living at home in Donegal (I was never made to feel at home in Scotland by the locals) I cannot stand to hear any hint of anti-Scottishness from the Irish. None of it directed at me, I might add - I'm one of them, I can even speak the lingo better than most of them, which is scarcely a great achievement sad to say.

The result of my background on me that I can see for myself (no doubt friends and family will see things I am blind to) is that I am definitely pan-Gaelic in my outlook, but not pan-Celtic, although I have the deepest respect for our Brittonic cousins and a great love and admiration for the spirit of the Welsh language revivalists. As for the English, I have no love for any displays of anti-Englishness, but am also dead-set opposed to their establishment's imperialism - military, economic and cultural - on our nations.


At the top of my wishlist is to see the Scots and Irish putting the centuries of foreign manipulation against each other behind them and concentrating their spirit of rivalry on hurling/shinty or rugby or something like it. Next is that we somehow get the real history of our nations through the skulls of those who have been socially-engineered by the Evil Empire. After that I'd love to see the restoration of our native langauges in the three Gaelic nations. Then I think we can be ourselves and see where the future takes us.

I think my wish list is entirely consistent with my past.

My aunt is staunchly prebyterian , of antrim extraction(paternal aunt) goes on the orange walk and all that malarky.Her maiden name , my name , is clearly gaelic. Yet we have argued time and again about the catholic language , gaelic , the language of the taigs as she puts it!
She utterly despises the english yet will proudly wave her butchers apron on the walks. To her the english are a lesser of two evils , the anti christ being the catholic government to the south. The current irish crisis is the result of the catholics getting rid of the proddies from running the bankes of ireland you know. Can you believe this shit??? Is it not enough to make you friggin weep??

I did point out to her that gaelic predates christianity , and a lot of the presbyterian scottish settlers of the north of the island of ireland were gaidhlig speakers from south west scotland. As most of us know , when you study the history of these islands the gradual theme is divide and conquer , with a certain nation of the saxon smiling in the background.

The biggest enemy of the gaels has always been ourselves , we have been well played by england , faction against faction for centuries.
Someone once said to me , never underestimate the stupidity of people in large numbers. Sectarianism and all the old divisive policies that are the scourge of the gael must be crushed.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:49 pm 
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What??? Where you were born , your ancestry and how you were brought up has everything to do with it! It shapes how we think and view the world!!

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You live in glasgow and speak scots everyday do ye?? Can ye tell me what part that is then??? I am born and bred in govan , and although i dont live there anymore i have family all round glasgow , paisley, Renfrew and other parts of scotland. Everyone i know including family and friends speak english in their scots slang.


Naw, ah stuy way out on eh edge o Ayrshire, ah says Glesga bit ah'm arny affa near thi biltit-up erea. Tae bi onest like, it's maistly thi auld yins speik eh lallans. Nou coud yi leuk me richt in eh keeker an mooth mi that whit ah'm taukin thi nou is Inglish? Sassenachs widnae ken whit ah wis bletherin oan about.

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My ancestry is important to me , and although we can only go back a few generations in the family tree ,( like most human beings ), my paternal side come from antrim and were staunch presbyterians


Indeed. I can trace my family tree a thousand years back to a 10th century Florentine nobleman, as it happens, which is the benefit of being upper class. But really, I don't think ancestory matters as much as identity, its not as if being born in Scotland or having Scottish ancestors conveys any Scottishness on to you (except in appearance anyway), that comes solely from your upbringing.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:24 am 
I think we've had enough of fishing in each other gene-pools over these two topics thanks everyone! :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:50 am 
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“Naw, ah stuy way out on eh edge o Ayrshire, ah says Glesga bit ah'm arny affa near thi biltit-up erea. Tae bi onest like, it's maistly thi auld yins speik eh lallans. Nou coud yi leuk me richt in eh keeker an mooth mi that whit ah'm taukin thi nou is Inglish? Sassenachs widnae ken whit ah wis bletherin oan about. “


That’s no a language , that sounds like animal noises. A woman screamin in agony havin a coach bolt put through her clitoris! :banned:
Joking aside , it sounds nothing more than archaic English , I would expect anyone speakin it to be dressed Dickensian style as they get ready to go fox hunting.
Interesting you use the Scottish (gaidhlig) sasunnach.?! When your scots, in times gone by , in the towns and cities were takin the piss out the poor scots who desperately clung to our language and culture , calling them sheepshaggers and teuchters , their reply to you inglis speakers would be to call you sasunnachs.
What an Insult calling a fellow scot an Englishman.

“Indeed. I can trace my family tree a thousand years back to a 10th century Florentine nobleman, as it happens, which is the benefit of being upper class. But really, I don't think ancestory matters as much as identity, its not as if being born in Scotland or having Scottish ancestors conveys any Scottishness on to you (except in appearance anyway), that comes solely from your upbringing.”

See this sort of thing interests me. I know it is a rarity but it can happen , like you say especially among the upper class , ( if you had any sort of class and panache , you would live in the posh part of Glasgow which , as everyone knows , is the beautifull govan!) or landowners etc.
I once worked with a guy from lavenham in Suffolk whose family were landowners and farmers in the area and could trace his tree back to the norman conquest. His own name was angliscised norman French.

Anyway , back on topic ( duilich adhamh ) . I believe the picts may have had their own language , originally as I think they were the original inhabitants of these islands. They would have learned gaelic and brythonic over the years , through trade and interraction and of course they shared a land border with the brythonic celts.
There are myths of irish princes being deposed and fleeing to pictland before the gaels colonised argyll.
I then believe the gaels converted them to Christianity and literacy ( as the gaels did with the saxon) which then led to them being eventually absorbed in to the gaelic culture before the two kingdoms joined to form alba.
Interestin the gaels kept the old pictish word alba and moved the gaelic capital from dunadd to scone.
Pity we know very little about them , I believe this was down to them practising the druidic religion pre Christianity which forbade , like the other pre christian celts , them writing anything down , their history and laws etc.
Certainly they must have taken much from the celts by the roman times at latest , language influence and laws , religion etc before disappearing into the gaelic culture during the 6th century or so.
Maybe they were always gaelic in speech , such a hard one to speculate about and hopefully we will find out one day?!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:25 am 
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albannach wrote:
Pity we know very little about them , I believe this was down to them practising the druidic religion pre Christianity which forbade , like the other pre christian celts , them writing anything down , their history and laws etc.


Wouldn't that only apply to religious and judicial things, ie, the work of the religious/druidic leaders, though? Couldn't there be a written language/record for the day to day stuff of the ordinary people ? Not everyone in a community is a religious leader, after all. It is very curious how there is no known written record left by the Picts. Especially when there are records from their contemporaries.

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