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Do you think that Lallan Scots is a real language?
Aye! an Scots ower Gaelic 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Yes, and equal to Gaelic 34%  34%  [ 12 ]
Sure, but 2nd to Gaelic 37%  37%  [ 13 ]
Don't know 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Not a 'language' as such, but still ours! 11%  11%  [ 4 ]
No: Gaelic or bust 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Never! A mere slang dialect! 9%  9%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 35
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:00 pm 
Let's see what the actual balance of opinion is then. The options are entirely arbitrary on my part, as Siol nan Gaidheal's unofficial language officer, so like 'em or lump 'em!

:dummy: :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:19 am 
Sure, but 2nd to Gaelic

ISO 639 is the set of international standards that lists short codes for language names.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_639

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_639:s#sco (Scots)

Surely if a language has an International Standard attached to it then it must be a language

Official status in Scotland and Europe
Classified as a "traditional language" by the Scottish Government.

Classified as a "regional or minority language" under the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, ratified by the United Kingdom in 2001.
Languages protected under the Charter in our case: Scots in Scotland and Northern Ireland (Ulster Scots)

Classified as a "traditional language" by The North/South Language Body. (that covers Ullans or Ulster Scots in Ireland)



I have posted this before :roll:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:21 am 
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Hi guys, This is only my second post so I hope youse dont mind me voting on this! :grin:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:07 am 
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Àdhamh MacLeòid wrote:
as Siol nan Gaidheal's unofficial language officer

That's OFFICIAL language officer... :cool:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:08 pm 
Right then, next time I see you I expect a tap on each shoulder with your sword.... :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:09 pm 
Peadar Pan wrote:
voting on this



Batter in!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:03 am 
So the balance has come out, even with a distinct lack of interest in this issue -I'm not surprised- that we, as users of this forum, believe 10-4 that Lallan Scots is a 'real language', although there is a distinct 9-5 majority who believe at the least that it is secondary to Gaelic, and that it must be dealt with accordingly.

I would like now, to take this to the membership alone, to see what happens....


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:36 am 
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I think they need radically different tactics. Gaidhlig probably needs more money because of the state it's in and the difficulty in learning it, but Braid Scots has a mixed blessing in being similar to English.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:47 am 
Scottish Republican wrote:
mixed blessing



And that's a euphemism if ever I heard one....


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:57 am 
I voted for Not a 'language' as such, but still ours as i do think its an important part of the various tongues of Scotland including Gaelic, Doric etc


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:58 am 
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Nah, think about it...

It's a mixed blessing, because... as well as all the negative stuff...

It's far easier for English speakers to pick up and/or understand than Gaidhlig.
And folk can speak a diluted version and still identify with it.

That's the positive side of it.

fwiw, some Gaels speak a kind of half & half mix too, but it's less common.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:27 pm 
Scottish Republican wrote:
And folk can speak a diluted version and still identify with it.

Gaels speak a kind of half & half mix too, but it's less common.



Most Gaels I know speak using a 'Low Register' of Gaelic tbh. I can't stand it, personally. Not much keener on the Scots version either. Think its a lazy f'n cop-out for folk who cannot be arsed making the effort.

That is precisely why we're in the situation we're in, because Scottishness has been comfortably separated from Scottish speech for so long now. You don't even have to speak a Scottish language now to be as Scottish as it gets.

I don't beg to differ, just do. Scotland deserves more frankly.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:29 pm 
In reference to the 'debate' that has started elsewhere, despite the express request to abate: I must make this clear, as there are folk who havn't -by the looks of it!- been involved in previous debates.

By 'Lallan Scots' (Lowland Scottish language), this includes 'Doric', 'Ayrshire Scots', 'Shetlandic' and the rest.

And you can lump them in together, because believe me -as this organisation's only fluent Gaelic speaker (unless they're hiding up someone's sleeve)- the differences between the Gaelic of Islay and Lewis are so insurmountable that I have often heard of true language loyalists having to break into English when attempting to bridge the gap between the two dialects. And yet they're seen, without a shadow of a doubt, as one language.

FACT.

Live with it, or if you want to better my research on this, be my guest, but I have just about had it up to the eyeballs with the ridiculous lack of education on this issue.

I am ridiculously under-educated about politics (thank f**k). Therefore I rarely post there. Maybe there's a leaf to be taken out of that book....


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:17 pm 
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Has Gaelic not got different dialects and different pronunciations even different words in different parts of Scotland so i would say there is a bit of snobbery going on over this by those saying Scots is not a Language


it is snobbery cause for years children in scotland were belted by parents and teachers if they talked Scots and were told to talk in the kings or queens english

Scots is every bit a part of our culture as Gaelic is and in fact there could be an argument in that it is more important as more people still use it even if the do not know they are useing it than speak Gaelic today

here are A few websites of interest
http://www.visitrannoch.com/scottish-language.htm

http://www.fact-index.com/s/sc/scots_language.html

http://www.scotslanguage.com/

http://www.scots-online.org/

http://www.dsl.ac.uk/

http://www.scotsindependent.org/features/scots/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/voices/multilingual/scots.shtml

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vli/l ... /index.htm

http://www.lallans.co.uk/

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:37 pm 
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Scots is a language that has grown up in Scotland parallel to English since the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons on our shores. There has been much linguistic exchange across the border over the years, and now we are part of the same country, so we all write in standard English no matter how we speak, and also the further north in England you go the closer you get to Scottish, until you get to places like Newcastle where their dialect has more in common with Scots than with the English of somewhere like the West Country. The situation can be described thus:

There is a continuum of the Scots language, at one end is Southern English dialect English with a Scottish accent, and at the other end is full on Scots where no word is exactly the same as an English one and 40% of words are unrecognisable aurally, 30% are altogether different such as French, Dutch and Gaelic influenced ones.

Every native Scot is somewhere on this continuum, from the very old people in rural villages who can with some effort be near the Full Scots end, to the younger people in inner city Glasgow who have a lot of Scots in the house but especially in formal situations include a lot more English, and then to people who are posh who just speak English with an accent and use the occasional piece of Scots as slang.

In a linguistics context, you do need to know that Scots is not a completely seperate language from English like Spanish and Portuguese are seperate, but they are best studied in a way that treats them as different evolutions of the same root, certainly not in the way that American English and English English are seen simply as different dialects of the same language.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:47 am 
Copperknickers wrote:
so we all write in standard English no matter how we speak.


A dinnae


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:08 pm 
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Aye pal, ah ken wi speik eh Scots leid wen wi'r wae wir ain fowk, but yi didnae wryte lik this in school did ye, unless yi wer wantin a skelp aff yir Inglis teichur?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:31 pm 
If there's yin thing A'd lo tae see, it'd be an Inglis dominie ettlin tae pit a skelp ower on MacMadd, nou that'd be whit they cry 'entertainment'....


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:48 am 
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http://scotsyett.com/download/lip.pdf

thought this might be of interest .


1. Scotland’s Politics.
“Our present is still decided for us in a centralised United Kingdom Parliament where our
democratically expressed wish for Home Rule is constantly frustrated. Thus has it been for many years.
What has this to do with language? Everything, for politics determines the way we view language and
culture and in time that influences how we view ourselves.”1
Scotland’s politics are, like the nation herself, quite distinct from the rest of the United
Kingdom. In Scotland there are not three significant political parties, but four. Uniquely her government
is not made up of the most successful political party at elections, nor even the second placed party. The
government of Scotland is routinely formed of the party which poles third and sometimes even fourth at
major elections. This peculiar situation has led to the evolution of a distinctive party system in Scotland
where each opposition party claims to provide the only viable solution to a government which 75% of
the Scottish electorate did not vote in and cannot vote out. The SNP are joined by Labour, the Liberal
Democrats and the Greens in seeking a Scottish Parliament as a positive solution to Scotland’s political,
economic and cultural aspirations.
Outside of ‘party politics’, Scotland’s cultural movements grow in strength, all placing their
own emphasis on the component of Scotland’s ‘national identity’ which motivates them - be it language,
music, dance, a particular institution, folklore or literature. These movements all want the same thing,
the promotion and recognition of the portion of Scottish culture which is most important to them.
While exclusively political groups focus on the debate over a Scottish Parliament, cultural
groups have elevated the question of language policy to a significantly higher profile within the political
agenda. As one academic put it “the resurgence of interest in Gaelic has close links with various
political aspirations for Scotland”.2 By gaining major concessions from the government, the
achievements of the Gaelic lobby launched the whole issue of language into the political arena and
caused many speakers of Scots to ask themselves the question: "Why them and not us?!"

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:53 am 
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http://scotsyett.com/download/lip.pdf

3. The politics of language.
a) Name Calling
The labelling of Scotland’s languages themselves has often provided a vehicle of expression for
political aspirations. An example is provided by the word ‘Scots’ itself which was originally employed
linguistically to describe the Gaelic language but which was later employed to identify the Anglo-Saxon
related language formerly called ‘Inglis’ in Scotland. By the late fifteenth century the linguistic progeny
of Anglo-Saxon had diverged sufficiently for the speakers of the Scottish form to begin identifying their
language by the appellation ‘Scottis’. At the same time it became common for those speakers to describe
contemporary Gaelic speech and communities in Scotland as ‘Ersche’.1 The various adjectives
describing the Scottish tongues cloud our view of the actual perceptions held by the linguistic
communities towards each other at given periods in history. Clearly, the speakers of ‘Inglis’ in Scotland
were not English, just as the speakers of ‘Ersche’ were not Irish. Both were indigenous Scottish
populations that used languages related to languages spoken in neighbouring countries. Scots Gaelic and
Scots had both evolved into languages quite distinct from those spoken in Ireland and England. It has
unfortunately remained a political expedient for some people to describe Scots Gaelic as an Irish dialect
or Scots as an English dialect, depending on their political agenda or belief - or indeed to relate ‘15th
century perceptions’ based on limited evidence (that of sections of the literate minority) coupled with
20th century prejudice. However the politics of language does not just concern the labelling of the
languages of Scotland but also encroaches onto the labelling of geographical areas of Scotland.

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