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Do you think that Lallan Scots is a real language?
Aye! an Scots ower Gaelic 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Yes, and equal to Gaelic 34%  34%  [ 12 ]
Sure, but 2nd to Gaelic 37%  37%  [ 13 ]
Don't know 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Not a 'language' as such, but still ours! 11%  11%  [ 4 ]
No: Gaelic or bust 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Never! A mere slang dialect! 9%  9%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 35
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:13 pm 
Ultach wrote:
BTW, returning to your remark about learning the southern Scottish dialects, I'd love to give that a go. Dr. Ciarán Ó Duibhín's view is that even though the continuum of the Gaelic world has been broken up by huge swathes of English-speaking territory we should still try to bridge the gaps by continuing to speak our own dialects wherever we go and making every effort to study and understand the others. What do you think yourself, having had experience of conversing in Cowal Gaelic to Donegal folk?


Without a shadow of a doubt, the amount of Gaelic I had to modulate with my very basic Irish was much less than when I begun to learn Gaelic and spoke the dialect of South Uist. The Gaelic of the Southern Hebrides is of an especially high quality, even now it is still very good Gaelic, but the facts are that it is about half as far as you can get from Irish. I suspect the Gaelic of Caithness (the other dialect with which I am familiar because that's what my ancestors spoke, those were my MacLeods) would be a good bit futher-i.e: closer to the eastern edge of the Gaelic diaspora, while the Gaelic of somewhere like Cork might be at the other end.

When you think of it in this way, the Gaelic of Cowal and Donegal might well be closer to each other in some ways than Donegal and Cork, or Cowal and Caithness.

Certainly, Cowal and Caithness both came from within the 'outer' dialect area, which runs from Islay to Lewis taking in Perth, Western Aberdeen and up through Easter Ross to Caithness, and with that no doubt have similarities....


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:22 pm 
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The people I come from spoke Irish and Bengali, certainly not Scottish Gaelic....


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:25 am 
So what is your connection to Lallan Scots? It all seems a bit arbitrary, although I do enjoy your writing style, I think the three of you are giving us a cracking debate here and some fresh ideas on one we've done to death....

My point, if I could summarise it in a sentence, would be this:

Without Gaelic there would be no Scotland, while without Lowland Scots we would simply be less diverse linguistically and culturally....


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:36 am 
Copperknickers, A've sent ye a private message aboot the post! Ye'll see the wee bittie abun thaur fir tae receive them....


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:02 pm 
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Copperknickers wrote:
The people I come from spoke Irish and Bengali, certainly not Scottish Gaelic....

:wtf: So why do you wish to marginalise the scottish language in favour of inglis?? Correct me here but neither the irish or bengalis cry inglis as their national language , dont understand?

Do you have an interest in irish , do you speak it??? Sorry , dont know much about bengali?!
Are you scottish???

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:01 pm 
Albannach, just to let you know that Copperknickers wrote a whole bunch of other really interesting stuff above and under that, but due to a technical cok-up, I have managed to delete most of it. I was trying to 'quote' his post, but instead I managed to 'edit' it instead which you can do as a moderator without realising the mistake you've made until after you've done it!

D' OH! :???:


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:09 pm 
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Àdhamh MacLeòid wrote:
Albannach, just to let you know that Copperknickers wrote a whole bunch of other really interesting stuff above and under that, but due to a technical cok-up, I have managed to delete most of it. I was trying to 'quote' his post, but instead I managed to 'edit' it instead which you can do as a moderator without realising the mistake you've made until after you've done it!

D' OH! :???:


no worries pal , hope he re posts cause i was enjoying the discussion , even though i dont agree with him. :breakdance:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:02 pm 
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Albannach, just to let you know that Copperknickers wrote a whole bunch of other really interesting stuff above and under that, but due to a technical cok-up, I have managed to delete most of it. I was trying to 'quote' his post, but instead I managed to 'edit' it instead which you can do as a moderator without realising the mistake you've made until after you've done it!


Dear god, you are joking!? I deleted it myself by accident when I was writing it, luckily I had saved it, but now it's gone again :axeattack:

:lol:
Ok: despite not being of Scottish background (I think perhaps one of my paternal great-great-great grandfathers may have been Scottish now I think about it) and not having been born here, I live in Ayrshire and I have grown up hearing Scots. I was born on Robert Burns' day, so it's a sort of tradition for me to have a Burns' Supper on my birthday, with my (English) dad reading the Address to the Haggis in an atrocious imitation of the local accent.

Anyway I speak the modern form of Scots, not quite at the end but pretty far along towards the Scots end of the continuum, depending on who I am speaking to of course. My Bengali is limited, my Irish is non-existant since my grandmother was a confirmed English speaker with no knowledge of 'the Gaelic' and little volition to partake in Irish culture, hence why she moved across to the mainland and married an Indian. Tbh from my experiences of them I prefer the sound of Scots Gaelic to Irish Gaelic, so I have been trying to learn that. However I feel that Scots is a more important part of my culture.

"I cannot imagine Scotland without Scots, Gaelic is just a nonsense language on a comedy channel 'siochd na wochty bloch television, quich na gooch na gong Barack Obama, richy meichymichy woch' etc., as far as most people in Glasgow and the surrounding area are concerned. I've never heard anyone speaking Gaelic, it seems as distant and inconsequential as Norwegian or Basque to me."

Anyway those were my old feelings, I now realise that I was woefully ignorant. In fact at the start, my Scottish passions arose through a sensation of brotherhood between my adopted nation and the shamrock-green blood that runs in my veins. At first I realised how similar Scots was to the Hiberno-English of the Irish. Furthermore, I had never realised that we were still a Celtic nation like Ireland, nor as I discovered upon further research, that Gaelic was the language on which Scotland was founded. And in the Lowlands too, it was not just a strange highland tongue. I was astounded to discover that Gaelic had been treated so harshly.

However I then went back to where this all began - Scots. Where did it fit in to all this? I found out that both the EU and the Scottish Parliament class it as a regional language. I knew all along that it was not a mere English dialect - a dialect is a subordinate, a linguistic little sister which depends on its older better established linguistic sibling, the Standard, and I think Scots has enough of a case, despite its similarity to English, to be classed as a language of the Scottish nation, even if it was originally founded on Gaelic. Besides, there is no scientific consensus or mathematical formula on how to distinguish between a language and a dialect, the only thing that does so is how much of a support base it has. Look at all the different dialects of Italian - in reality they are more different to Standard Italian than Scots to English, but Italy has a strong sense of national identity so they are all dialects. Then on the other hand look at all the different Indian languages, like Hindi and Urdu, in reality the same language just one with a Muslim vocuabulary, but because of the massive cultural divide between Pakistan and India you wouldn't dream of calling them the same.

I was expecting you guys here to be more supportive of Scots, I was dissapointed hence why I'm arguing - not because I do not identify with Gaelic because I love it, but I want to emphasise the point that just because Scots and English are similar that doesn't mean we have to relegate Scots as being English. I have a bit of perspective on this being from an entirely different culture: the Scots and the English are really not that different from each other, even Celtic vs Germanic, compared with Indians. Bengali too, for those of you who are not familiar with it (which you aren't at all, I'm guessing) also has to suffer the injustice of being a distinct language in a culturally distinct nation. It is second only to Hindi in India in importance, Bengal boasts the Capital of the Raj, Kolkata, as well as a history that makes Scotland's pale into insignificance (Buddhism, the Indus valley civilisation's eastern wing, plus more literature than can be read in a dozen lifetimes) but it has now come under foreign rule. That's another reason why I identify with Scotland (and you will find this with a lot of Pakistanis and Bengalis), I have empathy for it due to my background.

Scots has a lot of literature, a pretty large speaker base (even at an extremely conservative estimate of 70,000 or so, that's still more than Gaelic, and potential speaker base within a generation or two as I've said would be twenty fold that) and it occupies the central belt and the cities, i.e. the powerhouse of Scotland. Let's face it, the highlands are little more than Scotland's beautiful back garden, and a good thing too since they've managed to avoid the ravages that have befallen the beautiful lowland countryside. With current technology highland cities are looming ominously on the horizon, and though I'm a city boy I'd hate to see it destroyed. Anyway, my point is the lowlands are home to three quarters of our population, they are the beating heart of our country, and they are the heartland of Scots.

Go to a touristy area in Edinburgh or Stirling, and you are much more likely to come across one of the tea towels and mugs with a Scots word or phrase on them, with which you're all familiar I'm sure, than something in Gaelic. Most foreigners, including American Caledonophiles, do not have any idea that Gaelic exists, so its loss would be of considerably more consequence to us than to the rest of the world. Even those who have some vague conceptions of Scots speaking a different language, would be hard pressed to name it, and some I've met are under the impression that we don't even speak English here at all.

In conclusion, both Gaelic and Scots are important, but by concentrating on Gaelic you are alienating the majority of the country to whom Gaelic is simply a foreign language, and it simply will not do to say that Scots is not a perfectly legitimate national symbol that is as proud a part of Scotland as are the braes and lochs and the Gaidhlig, whatever your personal priority is.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:46 pm 
Copperknickers wrote:
I was expecting you guys here to be more supportive of Scots, I was dissapointed hence why I'm arguing - not because I do not identify with Gaelic because I love it, but I want to emphasise the point that just because Scots and English are similar that doesn't mean we have to relegate Scots as being English


I am absolutely supportive of Scots, but without a doubt I think the most healthy way to look at things is to say: everything in its right place

Your first comment almost was to say that Scots is a much better choice as a national language, but herein lies the rub: Scots is not a national language any more than Gaelic is, but Gaelic once was. Gaelic IS the original tongue of this country (because there was no Scotland before Gaelic), whereas Lowland Scots is like I said, just that, the Anglic speech of the Lowlands, and a relative latecomer to the scene. What you have to remember is that Scotland's original culture has continued on throughout our history and her people have continued to look on at the changes that came upon their nation. They never ceased to believe that the culture of the English speakers from the south was foreign (An Galar bhon Deas: the Disease from the South), to them, and to Alba. And as they lived out their lives watching their nation being usurped, culturally and otherwise, the insecurity of the 'invaders' grew, as they realised that they called Scotland their home, and therefore had to make themselves at home. When they frankly stole the national moniker, the Scots of the time laughed at them and their manners: they were soft, moany tight-arses, and lacked the musicality, poetry and blind heroism of their Scottish hosts....


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:08 am 
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Quote:
Your first comment almost was to say that Scots is a much better choice as a national language, but herein lies the rub: Scots is not a national language any more than Gaelic is, but Gaelic once was. Gaelic IS the original tongue of this country (because there was no Scotland before Gaelic), whereas Lowland Scots is like I said, just that, the Anglic speech of the Lowlands, and a relative latecomer to the scene.


Yes, but say Scotland becomes independent tomorrow: do you want back to basics, or do you want taking the basics and building on them to create not just a Scotland equal to the first one, but a Scotland that is even better?

Quote:
What you have to remember is that Scotland's original culture has continued on throughout our history and her people have continued to look on at the changes that came upon their nation. They never ceased to believe that the culture of the English speakers from the south was foreign (An Galar bhon Deas: the Disease from the South), to them, and to Alba. And as they lived out their lives watching their nation being usurped, culturally and otherwise, the insecurity of the 'invaders' grew, as they realised that they called Scotland their home, and therefore had to make themselves at home.


Started, continued, declined... you say that the Gaels initiated the idea of a Scottish nation. I posit that that nation is no longer compatible with the current Scotland, for better or worse. Scotland is the sum of all its history, the traditional and the comparitively modern and non-Gaelic. We are not the same nation we were, we took that first idea and built on it. Scotland is as unthinkable without its science and modern literature as it is without bagpipes and tartan.

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When they frankly stole the national moniker, the Scots of the time laughed at them and their manners: they were soft, moany tight-arses, and lacked the musicality, poetry and blind heroism of their Scottish hosts....[/justify]


Thi stereotypes run baith wuys, teuchter. :razz:


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:18 am 
....that's where my patriotism lies. However, that is not the reality of the situation today. And it hasn't been for some time. What any Scot has to ask is: is the Lowland tongue a force for Scottishness, can it express Scottish feelings? The answer, obvious. Of course it can, and very well. Right enough, as someone with an ability in both, and also as an amateur linguist, I know with certainty that there is a great depreciation in the transition between the tongues, one that has no connection to opinion. Gaelic has an ability to describe the Scottish experience, landscape and soul unlike anything else, and leaves Lallans in strict second. The vocabulary of Gaelic has the ability to decribe the entire country in the minutest detail, but Scots? She has to switch into Gaelic once she gets to the Highlands: glen, ben, loch, strath, crag, clachan, brae....

....there's no getting past that fact. Scots is less capable of describing our nation than Gaelic. And it is not just geographical features! I have actually lost count of the Scots words which come from Gaelic, there's a list somewhere else here, and a list that isn't close to exhaustive. The influence is almost all one way too.

That doesn't change the fact that I think Lallan Scots has its place. Without a shadow of a doubt, it has its place as Scotland's second language. Speakership has nothing to do with it. And I'm not sure you've been paying attention as goes the 'cool-factor' of Gaelic. Anyone other than knuckle-dragging, chip-on-the-shoulder lowland football fans ackowledge unreservedly the place of the language in our country, and there is without a shadow of a doubt a real buzz going amongst those who have taken any more than a passing interest in her fortunes. Scots just doesn't have the same appeal.

I admit I'm doing a bit of Devil's Advocating just now, I love the auld leid, but the points above I believe, from my own research, to be pretty accurate from the Gaelic side of the linguistic divide....


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:34 am 
Copperknickers wrote:
Yes, but say Scotland becomes independent tomorrow: do you want back to basics, or do you want taking the basics and building on them to create not just a Scotland equal to the first one, but a Scotland that is even better?


You can't better Gaelic, the more you learn, the more you'll understand. If you ever become fluent, you'll have a eureka moment, I can assure you!

Quote:
Started, continued, declined... you say that the Gaels initiated the idea of a Scottish nation. I posit that that nation is no longer compatible with the current Scotland, for better or worse. Scotland is the sum of all its history, the traditional and the comparitively modern and non-Gaelic. We are not the same nation we were, we took that first idea and built on it. Scotland is as unthinkable without its science and modern literature as it is without bagpipes and tartan.


The typical response of a Gall (stranger) as we called you Lowland English speakers :razz: Again, what can I say other than once you're on the inside the picture is very, infact vastly, different. I frankly, am not in the slightest bit interested in a Scotland without Gaelic, and indeed, feel little connection to 'Scotland today' (the programme's a bit shit too). Modern expressions of Scottishness are mostly focussed around kitsch, and on/off uniforms, Scottishness that can be removed and re-applied whenever seen fit. Once Gaelic has got into your soul, she begins to eat away at the previous stuffing that passed for Scottishness. Well, that was my experience. Everything else has seemed colourless since....


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:36 am 
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[color=#FF0000]“Ok: despite not being of Scottish background (I think perhaps one of my paternal great-great-great grandfathers may have been Scottish now I think about it) and not having been born here, I live in Ayrshire and I have grown up hearing Scots. I was born on Robert Burns' day, so it's a sort of tradition for me to have a Burns' Supper on my birthday, with my (English) dad reading the Address to the Haggis in an atrocious imitation of the local accent.”


So , to sum up. You are an Englishman , possibly brought up in Scotland , of irish/ Bengali descent , you may have an ancient Scottish ancestor and have grown up hearing English spoken in a scots accent which you believe is old inglis. You have a fetish for rabbie burns , and where I grew up in Glasgow , most scots , because of the bigotry and divide that has hurt our nation , celebrated st patricks day rather than burns night or st Andrews day.

“Anyway I speak the modern form of Scots, not quite at the end but pretty far along towards the Scots end of the continuum, depending on who I am speaking to of course. My Bengali is limited, my Irish is non-existant since my grandmother was a confirmed English speaker with no knowledge of 'the Gaelic' and little volition to partake in Irish culture, hence why she moved across to the mainland and married an Indian. Tbh from my experiences of them I prefer the sound of Scots Gaelic to Irish Gaelic, so I have been trying to learn that. However I feel that Scots is a more important part of my culture. “

With the greatest of respect , do you suffer from an identity crisis??? By your own admission , you are not Scottish , neither by ancestry or birth . You just happen to live here. Yet despite not having long term ties to Scotland , you come on here revising our history for us to fit a view of a country that never existed. Simply because your old man liked a bit of whiskey and haggis at burns night , you ve grown up listening to rabbie burns poems in inglis from the 18th century. Rabbie burns , were he alive today , would probably tell you that inglis was a language forced on him and his ancestors too.

“I was expecting you guys here to be more supportive of Scots, I was dissapointed hence why I'm arguing - not because I do not identify with Gaelic because I love it, but I want to emphasise the point that just because Scots and English are similar that doesn't mean we have to relegate Scots as being English. I have a bit of perspective on this being from an entirely different culture: the Scots and the English are really not that different from each other, even Celtic vs Germanic, compared with Indians. Bengali too, for those of you who are not familiar with it (which you aren't at all, I'm guessing) also has to suffer the injustice of being a distinct language in a culturally distinct nation. It is second only to Hindi in India in importance, Bengal boasts the Capital of the Raj, Kolkata, as well as a history that makes Scotland's pale into insignificance (Buddhism, the Indus valley civilisation's eastern wing, plus more literature than can be read in a dozen lifetimes) but it has now come under foreign rule. That's another reason why I identify with Scotland (and you will find this with a lot of Pakistanis and Bengalis), I have empathy for it due to my background. “[/color]

I grew up around the asian community in Glasgow , my father was good friends with an asian shopkeeper. With respect , because you are from a culture that is far removed from Europe , what you are doing is lumping us all together. Do you not realise how insulting it is for a Scotsman to be called british or English when he is abroad??? Most of us like to correct any foreigners making that mistake.

I asked , without wishing to insult, if you were suffering from an identity crisis. The reason being most Asians or other minorities that I know in these islands , almost always identify themselves as british. They never seem comfortable with any other lable , English doesn’t seem right to many , I suppose british is a vague generalised term that seems more comfortable. I have also not met many who identify themselves as Scottish.

With the greatest respect to you , I think you are latching on to certain aspects of Scottish culture , wether , like inglis , they are native or not .I believe it is clear much of your knowledge of Scotland is incorrect.

I know Ayrshire very well , I spent 2 weeks in ayr recently , and know the place like the back of my hand. Use that as a starting point in discovering Scotland. Chuck most of the bull in the bin and start again. You make the same mistake that many , americans , English and even scots make in that Scottish history starts in 1603 with the union of the crowns and before it there is this big large empty space for you to put in whatever takes your fancy.

If you were brought up or live in Ayrshire , why do you bang the drum about inglis. I put to you ancient welsh was a language spoken in Ayrshire longer than inglis ever was. Does the length of time a certain language or dialect count as being native to a certain area , or is inglis your chosen language simply because of robert burns???

By my reckoning , welsh was being spoken in Ayrshire for at least a thousand years or more , before being replaced by gaidhlig as the language when the kingdom of Strathclyde was eventually absorbed into the kingdom of alba by the 10th / 11th centuries. It remained a culturally distinctive area even in the 12 th century and pockets of welsh were still being spoken later than this. How long was inglis spoken here , a couple hunrded years at most.??? Certainly , Scottish ( gaidhlig) did not die out here till the 18th century , in the village of barr near Girvan I think.

We have records , of an English army official preparing reports of the possible military occupation of this area in the mid 16th century.
The exact recorded words by the Englishman were

“The people for the moste parte spekeht erishce”

During the jacobite insurrections 1715 and 1745 , highland troops passed through the area. Brit army records show

“forbye whun the rebels wus passin through gallowa and carrick , the hielanmen wus able tae converse freely wi the natives , but neither the natives nor the hielanmen could talk wi the erische auxillaries fur their gaelic wis that different they cud hardly mak them oot”

For the majority of recorded history , Scotland has been a non English speaking country. Look around your home in Ayrshire , the place names record the languages of the differing tongues , the celtic being the oldest and most numerous.

What about , a well as gaidhlig , welsh? What about pictish , even the Viking languages , danish and Norwegian??? You never seem to mention them , instead , like many ignorant of Scottish history , and also because many are still sectarian and cannot see the fenian irish as being anything to do wi Scotland , you seem to latch on to inglis and believe erroneously that the language you speak is anything other than the language of the English!!!

Historically , inglis is very little , outwith rabbie burns excellent poems , to do wi my land.It wasn’t spoken in Scotland till 1018AD , when that area that was conquered became a part of my country. It didn’t come out of the area of the lammermuir hills till nearly 400 years later and has helped persecute my native language so that today , our people are ignorant of their own tongue.

We are the only European nation to give up our national sovereignty , as well as being robbed of our bithright. How much of our history , libraries of priceless gaidhlig books and historical records were destroyed in the angliscizing zeal of the Scottish reformation , when your inglis tongue was rammed down the throat of my ancestors.
All we have left is the book of deer , a few poems from the 9th and 11th centuries . Yet you ,an adopted scot , have the cheek to tell me what language my country speaks , both historically and present day , where you are wrong on both counts.
Inglis was the regional language , gaidhlig was the language of the country.
Fed up listening to the romantic views of my country , from rabbie burns , auld lang syne , kilts etc. Aslong as we fit in with englands imperial ambitions , and serve her needs we are allowed these little tidbits of our culture. I respectfully suggest you leran a bit about your adopted country. Much of the foundation of your knowledge is based on centuries of lies , emanating from angle land.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:06 pm 
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Àdhamh MacLeòid wrote:
Without Gaelic there would be no Scotland, while without Lowland Scots we would simply be less diverse linguistically and culturally....


In a nutshell, that's it for me too. As for a restoration of Gaelic, I believe it's absolutely necessary for the national identity.

Going over the old ground again about the formation of the nation from diverse peoples, we need to keep in mind constantly that the Scotland that was produced had Gaelic as one of its main unifying forces. Now, if we really believe that the restoration of Gaelic is truly impossible, that IMHO leaves us with the choice of permanently assimilating into the Great British Project permanently and forgetting all about independence (what do regions of a nation want with independence - a bit of regional autonomy maybe, but not independence!) OR using the cultural wherewithal at our disposal and creating a new Scotland. We have plenty of diversity in the country today which could do with a unifying force. What would that unifying force be? Language? Which language? A straight question: does Lallans have what it takes to do the job? The other unifying force I can see on the scene is opposition to English rule, but is Scots capable of filling the linguistic gap? I don't know. Certainly the new Scotland has a ready made name for it in English: Scotland. In fact, perhaps someone else is ahead of me and has been preparing it for some time, and is just waiting for enough Scots to bring it to birth once and for all.

Scotland or Alba? That is the question.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:31 pm 
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If i am not mistaken , in any of the celtic languages there is no word for a scotsman. We have never called ourselves scotsmen. It was gael , or man of alba.
Up till the later medieavil period , in latin or english texts , a scot was the name given to the irish.

Scotland scottish is english words that originate from the roman scoti , hiberni and attecoti , all describing irish.So how can scot or scots english be a building block of our nation????

If you take the gael from scotland , there is no scotland. simples.

To say the modern scots are speaking scots is absolute nonsense , every organisation and government source , including the euro union has english as our official language. When you recognise that copperknickers and accept it , then ask the question why???

alba for me.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:34 pm 
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Never thought about that.

I know the Cymraeg for Irishman is Gwyddel, and I did a quick dictionary search for "Scot". It came up with "Ysgotyn" and the very intersting "Albanwr". Anyone know enough Cymraeg to comment on which is the older form?

Kernewek: "Albanek" for "Scottish" (nothing found for Scot), "Iwerdhonek" for "Irish"

Can't a Brezhoneg online dictionary that works!

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:57 pm 
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couldnae tell ye pal. I know, from some of my neighbours who are welsh speaking , their literal translation is man of alba.Did the name not come from the picts originally for the whole island , which made me think they were the original inhabitants of the main island before the coming of the brythonic and gael??? Not really sure , but certainly the literal translation is never scot.
I thought gwyddell , literally translated meant a raider or skirmisher???Obviously meaning a man of ireland , is not eireannach not literally "man of the parts" meaning the 5 provinces of ireland???
bheadh grá a labhairt Gaeilge, ach tá mé ag cacamas

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:20 pm 
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Àdhamh MacLeòid wrote:
Glen Trool: more info, please! I have read Lorimer's two papers in Scottish Gaelic Studies, and am acquainted with the story behind the "last Gaelic speaker" of Carrick Gaelic, who died near Barr in 1760, but I don't know much about the Glen Trool case. Glen Trool is where the Bruce monument is, if I remember rightly.


Well, you'd have to ask Scottish Republican about that, is that OK SR? But I think they still had to advertise for a Gaelic teacher up there around 1800 didn't they?[/quote]

Margaret McMurray was the last speaker of Carrick Gaidhlig, she came from Cultezron which is a small farm just outside Maybole (to the south west).

The teacher story is out of the book "Galloway Gossip", and it says that the teacher came from the Lennox.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:22 pm 
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Location: In the early days of a better nation
Ultach wrote:
Never thought about that.

I know the Cymraeg for Irishman is Gwyddel, and I did a quick dictionary search for "Scot". It came up with "Ysgotyn" and the very intersting "Albanwr". Anyone know enough Cymraeg to comment on which is the older form?

Kernewek: "Albanek" for "Scottish" (nothing found for Scot), "Iwerdhonek" for "Irish"

Can't a Brezhoneg online dictionary that works!


The proper Welsh for Scotland is Yr Alban (The Alba), but some Welsh speakers use Sgotland, which is obviously from English. Ysgotyn and Albanwr are from the same sources.

Breton, on the other hand, DOES use the word "Scot", or something similar. Bro Skoz is Scotland (bro = country)

Cornish is a revived language, so a lot of words are taken from elsewhere or invented recently.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:27 pm 
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albannach wrote:
If i am not mistaken , in any of the celtic languages there is no word for a scotsman. We have never called ourselves scotsmen. It was gael , or man of alba.


With the exception of Breton (which is the furthest from us)

Likewise none of the Celtic languages refer to "English" (i.e. Anglian/Anglo), it's always Saxon, or some word related to it, e.g. Sasannach, Sais etc.

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