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Do you think that Lallan Scots is a real language?
Aye! an Scots ower Gaelic 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Yes, and equal to Gaelic 34%  34%  [ 12 ]
Sure, but 2nd to Gaelic 37%  37%  [ 13 ]
Don't know 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Not a 'language' as such, but still ours! 11%  11%  [ 4 ]
No: Gaelic or bust 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Never! A mere slang dialect! 9%  9%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 35
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:29 pm 
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Thanks for that, but what about Glen Trool. Never heard of that one before.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:51 pm 
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I'm guessing that's a reference to the Statistical Account of Scotland... all that material is online somewhere folks... or in most major local libraries.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:12 pm 
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Scottish Republican wrote:
albannach wrote:
If i am not mistaken , in any of the celtic languages there is no word for a scotsman. We have never called ourselves scotsmen. It was gael , or man of alba.


With the exception of Breton (which is the furthest from us)

Likewise none of the Celtic languages refer to "English" (i.e. Anglian/Anglo), it's always Saxon, or some word related to it, e.g. Sasannach, Sais etc.

thanks for the posts scottish republican .I enjoy reading much of what yourself , ultach and adamh macleoid write.
Been to brittany a few times , what a lovely part of the world. Very friendly to the scots in general , but then so are the french.
I see the french have their own arguments with language , obviuosly breton is something different but many of them deny gaulish has much influence on the french language and i believe they have a lot of similar debates to what we have , in a round about way.

Of course , with english being the economic language of the planet for the moment ( due to the yanks) it puts the scots at an advantage and dissadvantage i think. Easier for business but harder for language revival. I would so love to see the day that gaidhlig is spoken in every school in scotland and we start reclaiming our culture back , instead of the touristy bag pipes , haggis and loch ness monster trinkets we have at present.
When the english come here and have to go through the wall of language and culture that is foreign to them , like they do in parts of wales , then we can say that we will finally be escaping the cultural shackles they have placed on us.
:saltire:

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:17 pm 
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Tapadh leibh Albannaich/ thanks Albannach

Check out this (if you haven't already)
http://www.bretagne-ecosse.org/brittany2dscotland.html

This organisation is slightly better known
http://www.celticleague.net/

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:27 pm 
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cheers once again pal. I spent my summer holidays this year in western france , near st gilles de croix vie. As soon as you say "je suis ecosse" what a difference.The french love the scots , and while some shrug and say anglais? Ecosse? as if to say whats the difference as many foreigners lump us together with the english , many of the french remember their history as well!!!
Funnily enough , thinking of ultach i met tons of irish there , must be a hot spot for irish tourists .Got on well with all nationalities there , except one group of growlers. Can you guess where they were from??? :???:

Although the vendee isnnae part of brittany , saw plenty of breton flags flying there. Always had a soft spot fur france , i suppose as well my old grandpa is buried there.

thanks fur the links pal

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:20 pm 
albannach wrote:
With the greatest of respect , do you suffer from an identity crisis??? By your own admission , you are not Scottish , neither by ancestry or birth . You just happen to live here



Phew, easy does it! :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:07 pm 
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[color=#FF0000]So , to sum up. You are an Englishman , possibly brought up in Scotland , of irish/ Bengali descent , you may have an ancient Scottish ancestor and have grown up hearing English spoken in a scots accent which you believe is old inglis.[/quote]

I'm not an Englishman, I was born in London and a year later moved to Scotland where I've lived all my life, ethnically I'm even less English than Scottish. People in my local area speak Scots, you won't find many places in which Scots is stronger than here.

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You have a fetish for rabbie burns , and where I grew up in Glasgow , most scots , because of the bigotry and divide that has hurt our nation , celebrated st patricks day rather than burns night or st Andrews day.


Yes, that's what comes from living in the city, down here in Ayrshire Burns' night is a big community occasion.

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With the greatest of respect , do you suffer from an identity crisis???


By definition, noone of mixed race has a concrete identity, we have to find it rather than be born into it. I wouldn't say I 'suffered' from my Scottish identity, in fact you are the one whose identity is bringing you suffering, what with all this anguish about oppression of your ancestors.

Quote:
By your own admission , you are not Scottish , neither by ancestry or birth.


So what, noone of Irish descent in the West of Scotland is Scottish? And if some Scottish-since-the-stone-age ned won a cruise to Antarctica on a scratchcard and gave birth, that would make the baby Antarctican? I must respectfully ask you to stick to the topic at hand and stop querying my ancestory, it has no bearing on my identity, and it is highly offensive to me that you base your opinion of me on my race - I answered your question because it helped me explain my point about bias, and I am rewarded with the kind of inquisition one would expect from Stormfront.

Quote:
You just happen to live here. Yet despite not having long term ties to Scotland , you come on here revising our history for us to fit a view of a country that never existed. Simply because your old man liked a bit of whiskey and haggis at burns night , you ve grown up listening to rabbie burns poems in inglis from the 18th century.


I came here for civilised debate, not ad hominems. Respond to my arguments or don't respond at all, sir.

Quote:
With the greatest respect to you , I think you are latching on to certain aspects of Scottish culture , wether , like inglis , they are native or not.


Scots is native, it was developed in Scotland and it is spoken by Scots, same as Gaelic.

Quote:
If you were brought up or live in Ayrshire , why do you bang the drum about inglis. I put to you ancient welsh was a language spoken in Ayrshire longer than inglis ever was.


Scots has been spoken here for three or four hundred years (although more in Glasgow itself), Cumbric was spoken for at least five hundred yes, I've already mentioned that myself in fact. It just goes to show, language is not a static thing, it moves around and evolves. We are still Scottish, regardless of whether we speak Gaelic or Taiwanese, who identify with Scotland, live in Scotland, were brought up in Scotland and participate in Scottish culture. Scots is a part of Scottish culture, as is Gaelic.

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I know Ayrshire very well , I spent 2 weeks in ayr recently , and know the place like the back of my hand.


Indeed, so do I.

Quote:
Chuck most of the bull in the bin and start again. You make the same mistake that many , americans , English and even scots make in that Scottish history starts in 1603 with the union of the crowns and before it there is this big large empty space for you to put in whatever takes your fancy.


No I don't, nothing more to say since you clearly haven't actually read my post.

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For the majority of recorded history , Scotland has been a non English speaking country. Look around your home in Ayrshire , the place names record the languages of the differing tongues , the celtic being the oldest and most numerous.


Indeed, as I've said already.

Quote:
What about , a well as gaidhlig , welsh? What about pictish , even the Viking languages , danish and Norwegian??? You never seem to mention them , instead , like many ignorant of Scottish history , and also because many are still sectarian and cannot see the fenian irish as being anything to do wi Scotland


Again, not reading my posts at all.

Quote:
It didn’t come out of the area of the lammermuir hills till nearly 400 years later and has helped persecute my native language so that today , our people are ignorant of their own tongue.


Gaelic persecuted Pictish, Pictish probably persecuted neolithic Brittanic too, and now the Gaelic and English are working together, persecuting Scots. I don't see the logic in that at all personally.

Quote:
All we have left is the book of deer , a few poems from the 9th and 11th centuries . Yet you ,an adopted scot , have the cheek to tell me what language my country speaks.


You will often find that convert Christians are actually a lot more knowledgeable about their religion than birth Christians. That's because they aren't blinded by bias. I'm on your side as far as Gaelic is concerned, I just don't want to see Scots lumped together with English when it just isn't.

Quote:
I respectfully suggest you leran a bit about your adopted country. Much of the foundation of your knowledge is based on centuries of lies , emanating from angle land.


You can show me respect by directing your criticisms against my arguments. I'm not basing them on the anti-Gaelic prejudice, I'm trying to stop the tide from flipping round to Gaels denying that Scotland's history extends beyond 1606.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:46 pm 
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You sound like a tourist which is why i question your identity.By definition , if you were born in england then you are english. You might feel scottish but thats were you were born.
I would love you to tell me which part of ayrshire they speak scots , but like most of the points and questions i have put to ,which you have so far evaded, i wont hold my breath.

You have added very little historical and linguistic fact to this debate , and in short you are a plastic kid on scot .

Its clear you know nothing about scotland , despite living in ayrshire , yet you continue to preach to those of us born here about your blinkered view on the inglis language.

You came on here trying to marginalise gaidhlig , and are now in shock when no one particularly agrees with your estimation of the linguistic history of scotland , simply because you have not bothered in trying to learn about scotland and her history.

What were you one of the boys down in ayrshire ridiculing that fenian language and learning scots english???Did it help you fit into your cultural identity you have chosen???

You have answered none of the points i have made in many of my posts , and apart from continuing your blinkered view on inglis , wish to cry off now. Ad hominen attacks , get out of here :violin: we are all adults , and it is a bit of debate.

I put forth my interpretation of scotlands linguistic history and your reply , scots english is written on tourist towels in edinburgh. You plastic scot , you are a fraud.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:00 pm 
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I'm sorry you feel that way, but once again you are ignoring my posts. If you disagree with me, present evidence: I'm afraid I have come off better in this debate so far than you regardless of who is in the right, because all you have done is told me I am wrong. Why are you posting on a Scots forum section if you having nothing to add to the discussion except trolling? I am far from alone in this thread in my opinion that Scots is an important part of Scottish culture.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:56 pm 
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Copperknickers wrote:
I'm sorry you feel that way, but once again you are ignoring my posts. If you disagree with me, present evidence: I'm afraid I have come off better in this debate so far than you regardless of who is in the right, because all you have done is told me I am wrong. Why are you posting on a Scots forum section if you having nothing to add to the discussion except trolling? I am far from alone in this thread in my opinion that Scots is an important part of Scottish culture.

what is your question then caller???Nothing you have said is new , yet you clearly did not know gaidhlig was once the language of the majority.
I gave you , along with others , a history of the linguistics of scotland ; no reply.
I asked you in other threads about why old english has no celtic in it if the races lived side byside happily ; no reply.
Where is scots/lallans/inglis spoken in scotland by a community in the modern day ; no reply.
scots is a part of the history of scotland but is not a defining part , no reply.
Why should i debate further with someone who cannot understand the modern scots language is english , yet you keep calling it scots , present your evidence!!!!

You also seem not to understand that if you were born in england , that makes you english comprende???

Attempt at further debate is pointless , we keep going over old ground. So answer the fookin questions above , put up or shut up!!!

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:15 pm 
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Quote:
yet you clearly did not know gaidhlig was once the language of the majority.


I did, and I'm not denying it now.

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I asked you in other threads about why old english has no celtic in it if the races lived side byside happily


An argument, that's more like it. My answer is: for the same reason French has little Gaulish in it, and American English has no native American in it, and Finnish has no Saami in it, etc. The Old English speaking Germanic culture took control of the old Brythonic one. There is no doubt that the Brythonic language was forced out, there is little doubt that the Brythonic tribes were pushed west, but seeing as the majority of people in England were settled Romano-British people, who had in fact probably already started to stop speaking Celtic languages in favour of Latin, the evidence points to a cultural shift rather than a genocide. The DNA evidence, shows that the heritage of even East Anglians has more in common with the Celtic Britons than with the contintental Germans and Dutch, and we have yet to find any archaeological evidence of anything amounting to a large scale mass killing of Britons. Some of the evidence. Raids and perhaps a battle or two, yes, but slaugher, you'll have to give me more evidence than currently exists.

Quote:
Where is scots/lallans/inglis spoken in scotland by a community in the modern day


The (particularly elderly) residents of Ayrshire, lower class Glasgow, Shetland and Fife/Angus/Aberdeen all have a dialect that registers relatively far towards the Scots end of the linguistic continuum. I admit that Scots has been converging with English for the past hundred years, but it still exists, and it still has the potential to be revived. Scots is an official minority language of the EU and the UK government, it has recognition by top academics of Germanic languages from among other places, Oxford University. It was the language used in the first parliament of Scotland and was used before in the royal courts.

In fact the main reason Scots is thought of so lowly is that it too has suffered repression, with people like David Hume deliberately denigrating it to the status of a bastard dialect of English, even at a time when it really was the everday language of southern Scotland even in largely formal situations. Hume, for example, considered himself 'Northern British' and made great effort to speak Standard English. There was an effort in education to remove Scots spelling traditions and turn it into Standard English. In fact a committee amde up of influential figures, called the Select Society for Promoting the Reading and Speaking of the English Language in Scotland, was a direct and clear campaign with the sole aim of destroying the Scots language, it was due to that that Scots stopped having credibility in literary and official circles. So Gaelic is not the only language to have suffered persecution.

For more information, read Charles Jones: A Language Suppressed: The Pronunciation of the Scots Language in the 18th Century. Even as late as the 1940s, the Scottish Education Department's language policy was that Scots was worthless: "...it is not the language of 'educated' people anywhere, and could not be described as a suitable medium of education or culture".

Quote:
You also seem not to understand that if you were born in england , that makes you english comprende???


No it doesn't, I have a white Scottish friend who was born in Hong Kong because his parents were working on contract to a company there, which finished soon after he was born: does that make him Chinese? The fact that I was born in England does not make me English, it makes me someone whose parents happened to be going to university there and got pregnant at the wrong time.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:21 am 
Albannach, I'm with you all the way on much of what you have to say topically, but be careful that a certain 'witch-hunt mentality' doesn't develop here. I think Copperknickers has acquitted himself (even though he didn't actually have to, but did out of courtesy) as to his connection to Scotland most eloquently, and displays a loyalty to this nation that I would trade a hundred ethnically Scottish neds for!

I do however agree that there is a certain natural ignorance on your part towards Gaelic Copnik, but I don't see it as a bad thing, just natural. I mean 'ignorance' in the dictionary definition sense, and you will lose that (as we all do about things in which we take an interest) as you go along on your exploration!

Albannach, please stay on topic, as your considerable passion is best directed in a positive manner and not in pointing out the things which you consider nagative. Friends and points are made by seeing the glass half-full.... :grin:


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:15 am 
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If I show any ignorance, by all means educate me. That's why I'm here afterall. I think its safe to say that most people my age in Scotland don't know the first thing about Gaelic though, so although I am ignorant compared with you guys yous are all probably much older than me and have the advantage of living in Gaidhealtachd areas. Even so, the very fact that Gaelic is so little known shows its failing influence, Scots is in fact preserving it by its Gaelic words and ensuring correct pronounciation of placenames.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:07 pm 
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Copperknickers wrote:
Scots is in fact preserving it by its Gaelic words and ensuring correct pronounciation of placenames.


At last we have something to agree upon!

I've often thought that a study of Lallans should be carried out along the lines of LASID in Ireland and the 'Survey of the Gaelic dialects of Scotland'. Natural Lallans is a treasure house of information for extinct dialects of Gaelic and it should be studied in detail now before it's too late.

I think Markku Filppula might just be the man for the job, too. He is author of 'English and Celtic in Contact' and 'The Grammar of Irish English.' If Santa is good to me this year, I might know a bit better just how good for the job he is.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:12 pm 
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albannach wrote:
You sound like a tourist which is why i question your identity.By definition , if you were born in england then you are english. You might feel scottish but thats were you were born.


There are plenty of people born in Scotland who are not Scottish (Queen Mum anyone? Tony Blair?) as well.

Actually a friend of mine was born in West Germany, and her brother was born in Malaya, so does that stop them being Scottish? Their father was in the British Army.

I put it that Coppernickers is not Scottish, by his/her attitude, not by the place of birth.

Quote:
now the Gaelic and English are working together, persecuting Scots.


No, they're not "working together". Most of the complaints I hear about Gaidhlig funding come from people on the Braid Scots/Doric side - I don't hear Gaels complaining about funding for the other language.

Anyway, the entire north east of Scotland, and south west were Gaidhlig speaking, as was Fife, Perthshire etc. In the case of the north east, Doric has expanded at the expense of Gaidhlig in the past 150 years.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:19 pm 
Copperknickers wrote:
If I show any ignorance, by all means educate me. That's why I'm here afterall


I have been dong my best and enjoyed it thus far....


Quote:
I think its safe to say that most people my age in Scotland don't know the first thing about Gaelic though, so although I am ignorant compared with you guys yous are all probably much older than me and have the advantage of living in Gaidhealtachd areas


I don't live in such an area, although Glasgow could very well be described as the new Gaidhealtachd. The amount of people who know 'nothing' about Gaelic are increasingly smaller, and there has been an absolutely incredible awakening to our identity over the last 10 years. Despite GME having its failings, their intake is on the up and up every year. Young people these days in Glasgow (apart from the ignorant aforementioned grouping) generally react like this when it comes up in conversation that I have Gaelic:

"D' you speak Gaylick mate, aye? Fuckin yawss man, A'd love tae speak that man, pure Sco-tash by the way!"


Quote:
Even so, the very fact that Gaelic is so little known shows its failing influence, Scots is in fact preserving it by its Gaelic words and ensuring correct pronounciation of placenames.


I hardly think failing influence is relevant here. Scottish culture as a whole has received, over the years, a good few boots in the baws, not just Gaelic.

I'll tell you what, most Scots think they already speak 'Scottish' (i.e: English with a Scottish accent), even though they don't even come close to Lallan Scots or Gaelic, and indeed if you asked them what 'Scots' was they probably wouldn't be able to answer.

At the very least, most people know what Gaelic is, even if it is an abstraction. To most Scots in my hame toon o Glesga, Scots is confined to the poetry of Burns and even then they think its something you just make up and only use when taking the piss or doing a caricature of a 'Scot'....


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:33 pm 
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I was talking to this woman a few years ago, and she says about Spain, "well, they don't speak Scottish, I mean British, I mean English there..."

Hmmm...

A bit like the eejit who I overheard saying, "Gaylick, that's no Sco'ish!" - he'd been looking at the window of a shop with a "learn Scottish Gaelic" CD in it.

What to say about either of these two folk... unfortunately they're representative of what's really happening out there.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:33 pm 
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Quote:
I put it that Coppernickers is not Scottish, by his/her attitude, not by the place of birth.


Still doesn't really get my point: identity is a personal thing, nobody has the right to tell me whether I'm Scottish or not, that decision is up to me. Scottish is not an official nationality, it's not something that gets written down on official documents like British or American.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:39 pm 
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Àdhamh MacLeòid wrote:
Albannach, I'm with you all the way on much of what you have to say topically, but be careful that a certain 'witch-hunt mentality' doesn't develop here. I think Copperknickers has acquitted himself (even though he didn't actually have to, but did out of courtesy) as to his connection to Scotland most eloquently, and displays a loyalty to this nation that I would trade a hundred ethnically Scottish neds for!

I do however agree that there is a certain natural ignorance on your part towards Gaelic Copnik, but I don't see it as a bad thing, just natural. I mean 'ignorance' in the dictionary definition sense, and you will lose that (as we all do about things in which we take an interest) as you go along on your exploration!

Albannach, please stay on topic, as your considerable passion is best directed in a positive manner and not in pointing out the things which you consider nagative. Friends and points are made by seeing the glass half-full.... :grin:

duilich adhamh

i will tone it down when speaking to the gall


Buaidh air clannaibh nan gall!!!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:50 pm 
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“I did, and I'm not denying it now.”

You did know gaidhlig was the language of the majority of Scotland??? Then why , in an earlier post , did you say gaidhlig was only ever the language (yawn) of the highlands and islands??? Was that a slip , genuine ignorance or were you intentionally at the wind up???




“An argument, that's more like it. My answer is: for the same reason French has little Gaulish in it, and American English has no native American in it, and Finnish has no Saami in it, etc. The Old English speaking Germanic culture took control of the old Brythonic one. There is no doubt that the Brythonic language was forced out, there is little doubt that the Brythonic tribes were pushed west, but seeing as the majority of people in England were settled Romano-British people, who had in fact probably already started to stop speaking Celtic languages in favour of Latin, the evidence points to a cultural shift rather than a genocide. The DNA evidence, shows that the heritage of even East Anglians has more in common with the Celtic Britons than with the contintental Germans and Dutch, and we have yet to find any archaeological evidence of anything amounting to a large scale mass killing of Britons. Some of the evidence. Raids and perhaps a battle or two, yes, but slaugher, you'll have to give me more evidence than currently exists.

I agree with Oppenheim to a certain extent. I believe wave after wave of immigrants/ invaders imposed themselves over the previous culture going back to the last ice age. Where I dissagree with the friendly saxon immigrant theory is;
1. They have found evidence from the fifth century ad of burnt villages and remains at caistor near Yarmouth.
2. Lack of shared language. Old saxon is dominant with very few celtic words. Due to lack of social relations. Two races living side by side for centuries with the new immigrants virtually peacefully wiping out the existing language , not to mention re naming the whole country angle land.
3Welsh comes from old saxon wealhas meaning foreigner. Derogetary title for your friendly neighbours and host nation don’t you think??
4. Within 200 years the welsh speaking Britons were calling parts of England lloeger , meaning the lost lands
5. The danish tongue makes up 15% of modern English and the Normans 45%. Why is there no brythonic in English , as point 2???
6.if it is true then by christ let it be a chilling lesson to us in the modern world




The (particularly elderly) residents of Ayrshire, lower class Glasgow, Shetland and Fife/Angus/Aberdeen all have a dialect that registers relatively far towards the Scots end of the linguistic continuum. I admit that Scots has been converging with English for the past hundred years, but it still exists, and it still has the potential to be revived. Scots is an official minority language of the EU and the UK government, it has recognition by top academics of Germanic languages from among other places, Oxford University. It was the language used in the first parliament of Scotland and was used before in the royal courts.”

I amfrom lower class Glasgow and I have never heard anyone speak scots. My gran knew a few words but certainly was not a speaker. If you mean the modern scots accent as scots then can you define this as a language??? How do you define it as a language??? English is part of the educational curriculum for every child in these islands , has been for over a hundred years or so. What makes the scots accent of English into its own language , and would that not make scouse , brummy geordie etc as differing languages instead of a regional accent??? If so then most of the planet have many more languages than we think.



In fact the main reason Scots is thought of so lowly is that it too has suffered repression, with people like David Hume deliberately denigrating it to the status of a bastard dialect of English, even at a time when it really was the everday language of southern Scotland even in largely formal situations. Hume, for example, considered himself 'Northern British' and made great effort to speak Standard English. There was an effort in education to remove Scots spelling traditions and turn it into Standard English. In fact a committee amde up of influential figures, called the Select Society for Promoting the Reading and Speaking of the English Language in Scotland, was a direct and clear campaign with the sole aim of destroying the Scots language, it was due to that that Scots stopped having credibility in literary and official circles. So Gaelic is not the only language to have suffered persecution.”

No one on this forum ever claimed it was. My personal belief is it is a regional dialect of the English language , ( Glaswegian , aberdonian , Edinburgh etc) and no taxpayers money should be wasted on it.
We have our own language , gaidhlig and if that cannot be introduced for whatever reason , then the angliscising of our culture is complete.

“For more information, read Charles Jones: A Language Suppressed: The Pronunciation of the Scots Language in the 18th Century. Even as late as the 1940s, the Scottish Education Department's language policy was that Scots was worthless: "...it is not the language of 'educated' people anywhere, and could not be described as a suitable medium of education or culture".

Thank you for trying to educate me. No thank you though , I already speak English as my lingua materna and don’t need another archaic form thrust on me. I wish to spend what little spare time I have learning my ancestors tongue , gaidhlig. That’s where I intend to spend my £`s!!!




“No it doesn't, I have a white Scottish friend who was born in Hong Kong because his parents were working on contract to a company there, which finished soon after he was born: does that make him Chinese? The fact that I was born in England does not make me English, it makes me someone whose parents happened to be going to university there and got pregnant at the wrong time.


Your white Scottish friend is Chinese by birth , Scottish by culture and I assume English by language.
You are English by birth , Scottish by culture and English by language( unless you speak others , I assume English is your mother tongue)

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